New Ilford Multigrade classic- what developer

brian steinberger said:

I'm developing in LPD. Both of those papers, classic and cooltone have wonky curves IMO where the blacks are fat and lacking contrast especially at higher grades. This is far from a paper like MGWT where the blacks have great micro-contrast all through the grades.

Could you elaborate on the link between HP5 and classic? HP5 (120) is my main film.

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MG Classic has a softer toe than MGIV, more linear curves at lower grades, beautiful separation into the low mids in a way that is harder to achieve with MGIV. Less dry-down too.

Neither is lacking in contrast - Cooltone is a fast, crisp, brutally punchy paper. 5K MG Classic is one of the most beautiful papers around.

If anything, they now make more of a coherent family of papers between the 3 emulsion sets. I understand they are all now made on the same emulsion plant as the Delta films. It would not surprise me if they share similarly high tech controlled crystal growth technologies.

Regarding the greenishness, I have seen hints of it - usually from PQ Universal that has had quite a bit of paper put through it - bromide build up seems a likely suspect. Don't forget that finer grain in paper tends to make it look warmer and coarser grain tends to make it look colder. Choices of & quantities of restrainer will affect this.

ChuckP said:

If you like cold tones why aren't people using the new Ilford Coldtone paper? Something wrong with it compared to Classic?...

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Yes, to my eye there are two things wrong with it. First, excessive surface gloss. Classic strikes an excellent balance between supporting blacks and not suffering reflections when viewed. Second, a garish level of optical brightening agent (OBA), appreciably more than Classic.

brian steinberger said:

...the new cooltone paper...goes plummy very quickly...

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Even worse, for me, was that it split. I hate that look.

I just printed some Classic using Adox MCC Developer for the first time. Ignoring my favorite bumper sticker ("I feel much better since I gave up hope"), I anticipated a neutral result. No such luck; it wasn't significantly less warm than in other standard developers. Comparing to tests conducted in the past, nothing's more neutral for me with Classic than Moersch SE3 Cold. Especially after three minutes in 1+40 selenium. Unfortunately, Freestyle no longer imports it, so that leaves ordering from Fotoimpex and incurring a large international shipping charge.

RalphLambrecht said:

It's hard to go wrong with Dektol.

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+1

I use Liquidol with Classic and like it.

Dave

Sal Santamaura said:

Yes, to my eye there are two things wrong with it. First, excessive surface gloss. Classic strikes an excellent balance between supporting blacks and not suffering reflections when viewed. Second, a garish level of optical brightening agent (OBA), appreciably more than Classic.Even worse, for me, was that it split. I hate that look.

I just printed some Classic using Adox MCC Developer for the first time. Ignoring my favorite bumper sticker ("I feel much better since I gave up hope"), I anticipated a neutral result. No such luck; it wasn't significantly less warm than in other standard developers. Comparing to tests conducted in the past, nothing's more neutral for me with Classic than Moersch SE3 Cold. Especially after three minutes in 1+40 selenium. Unfortunately, Freestyle no longer imports it, so that leaves ordering from Fotoimpex and incurring a large international shipping charge.

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I've been using the Cooltone FB a lot recently - can't say that either the surface gloss or OBA content offend me in any real way - it's certainly not blue-white like some offset papers can be & the brighteners don't wash out as far as I can tell. Of course, I'd probably prefer it with the Galerie 1K surface finish (which also has brighteners locked into it), but there are probably very good reasons why this has not happened. I'm currently really enjoying the look of Ortho + on Cooltone FB though, so this probably marks me out as some sort of perverse lunatic...

I've found Cooltone to be fractionally chillier in Multigrade than PQ universal - I'd guess this might have to do with the restrainers & their interactions with the emulsion design. And that's where things get tricky as I suspect that Ilford are not willing to divulge aspects of their emulsion designs that may be regarded as commercially sensitive.

Regarding cooler/ colder tones on MGFB Classic, have you tried Moersch's Finisher Blue? As far as I can tell, it's PMT and Benzotriazole in a bottle - if it can get MGWT to potentially go chilly, it's probably worth a look/ try. Can't see why it wouldn't potentially work with MCC Developer.

DAK said:

I use Liquidol with Classic and like it.

Dave

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I, too, have gone to Liquidol with Classic and love it. Before I switch to any different paper or developer I always run some tests with 31-step wedge prints on 5x7 samples, both projection and contact prints to compare the contrast differences. I’ve recently completed these Liquidol/Classic tests and have learned quite a bit. One of my main concerns this time around was to ensure that my recent enlarger light source conversion to LEDs was performing well (with under-lens filters 00, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, None). It was. I’ve always been bothered by Dektol expiring quickly, both stock and working solution; Ilford MG developer was no different. I detest having to dump chemicals before I could get full use of them - so wasteful. Liquidol solved that. It’s really a tough developer, and I have long stories to confirm it. It was developed by our own “Photo Engineer” (PE) together with Bill Troop, using all their knowledge about long life developer chemistry; it’s marketed by Photographers Formulary and is available from Freestyle and others. The Formulary’s instructions suggest 60 seconds development (1+9, 68*F), but my tests showed that would only reach 1.9 density, so I did my tests at 3 minutes and it reached 2.1 density. I did notice how fast the wedge image began to appear in the developer, so if one is using Factorial Development be ready for that. When making REAL prints I plan to slip in a few wedge prints to find the minimum dev time needed to reach 2.1 density. I was ecstatic to see the bright white and deep black in the wedge prints and no sign of a tint (which is cured easily by selenium toning any image worth keeping). Now it’s off to make real prints.



BTW, here’s a screenshot of my dev time comparison of 60s to 3m. All curves have been shifted along the RLE scale to intersect at the same arbitrary point to make it easier to compare the slopes.

Lachlan Young said:

...Regarding cooler/ colder tones on MGFB Classic, have you tried Moersch's Finisher Blue? As far as I can tell, it's PMT and Benzotriazole in a bottle - if it can get MGWT to potentially go chilly, it's probably worth a look/ try. Can't see why it wouldn't potentially work with MCC Developer.

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I've not tried it, although various concentrations of Benzotriazole by itself with other paper/developer combinations never caused any cooling in my tests; they just lengthened required exposure times. Next Freestyle order I'll include a bottle of Finisher Blue and give it a go.

Sal Santamaura said:

I've not tried it, although various concentrations of Benzotriazole by itself with other paper/developer combinations never caused any cooling in my tests; they just lengthened required exposure times. Next Freestyle order I'll include a bottle of Finisher Blue and give it a go.

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I was surprised to see from the msds that it contained benzotriazole - always had thought it was essentially just PMT in a bottle. Will give it a try on Cooltone at some point & report back.

I use LPD 1:2 or 1:4 mixed with Georgia tap water and don't get the greenish tone for either MGFB Classic or Warmtone. In fact they are almost identical until I tone them. I develop for 2.5 minutes, kodak indicator stop, and use Ilford rapid fix or TF5 fixer. Even my grade 00 prints are very neutral gray. you can also dilute LPD 1:8 and it supposedly turns the image toward the warmer tones, I have not tried it. in Selenium, Classic turns purple-ish while warmtone turns chocolate with full toning dev > 10minutes.

Anyone looking to cool or neutralize classic should look up the threads on PMT. Works just fine for cooling classic. And it's much cheaper than buying finisher blue and can be added to any developer (though will get different results depending on developer). I've been using PMT with LPD and my classic prints are dead nuetral, may be just slightly bluish/purplish depending on the light. This is after selenium toning 5 minutes at 1:19 in which the prints do not go reddish whatsoever.

Sal Santamaura said:

...I just printed some Classic using Adox MCC Developer for the first time. Ignoring my favorite bumper sticker ("I feel much better since I gave up hope"), I anticipated a neutral result. No such luck; it wasn't significantly less warm than in other standard developers. Comparing to tests conducted in the past, nothing's more neutral for me with Classic than Moersch SE3 Cold. Especially after three minutes in 1+40 selenium. Unfortunately, Freestyle no longer imports it, so that leaves ordering from Fotoimpex and incurring a large international shipping charge.

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Sal Santamaura said:

...Next Freestyle order I'll include a bottle of Finisher Blue and give it a go.

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I've not yet ordered anything from Freestyle, but probably won't bother with Finisher Blue. My first quoted post was made after comparing untoned Classic in Adox MCC developer and Moersch SE3 Cold. I hadn't yet toned the Adox-processed print. Yesterday I did, using the same protocol as my past Classic/SE3 print was subjected to, namely KRST 1+40 for three minutes at 75 degrees F.

While the new print is still slightly less neutral than the older SE3 version, toning it has brought the color close enough that neither SE3 nor Finisher Blue seem necessary. I'm happy with this result.