New hc110, is it as strong as the original

Cerebum · Nov 19, 2022

Apologies if this has been covered but I searched and couldn't find what I was looking for

My first experience with HC110 was with the Bellini version (Euro110) and I was hugely impressed. When the bottle ended I bought some genuine Kodak HC110 and my results haven't been as good. All the rolls I have developed looked like they needed another minute. I know there is a diluted version of HC110 available in Europe but mine is supposed to be the full strength. Has anyone else experienced this? Is it possible that the Bellini is stronger? I would love to hear of others experiences as I have loads of this stuff left

Nitroplait · Nov 19, 2022

The more liquid HC110 (the German one) works exactly as the previous more viscous version.
Haven't tried the Bellini product.

If your rolls looks like they need another minute in the original product, why don't you give them another minute?

Cerebum · Nov 19, 2022

Nitroplait said:
The more liquid HC110 (the German one) works exactly as the previous more viscous version.
Haven't tried the Bellini product.

If your rolls looks like they need another minute in the original product, why don't you give them another minute?

All of my times were based on the data sheets/massive dev. The results were lovely in the Bellini. I have shot different films using the new stuff but going forward, in each case, I am going to adjust my times for the Kodak. I just wanted to know if people had seen a difference between the versions

removedacct3 · Nov 19, 2022

Cerebum said:
... The results were lovely in the Bellini ...

Was it for a reason that you switched from Bellini to Kodak? (I'm genuinely curious)

Cerebum · Nov 19, 2022

MrclSchprs said:
Was it for a reason that you switched from Bellini to Kodak? (I'm genuinely curious)

Cost. The Bellini is £26+ postage for 500ml and the Kodak is £40 per litre. I presumed they would be the same

MattKing · Nov 19, 2022

Where was your HC-110 made, and what is the best before date, and what is the catalogue number? That will tell us which "new" HC-110 you have.

removedacct3 · Nov 19, 2022

Cerebum said:
Cost. The Bellini is £26+ postage for 500ml and the Kodak is £40 per litre. I presumed they would be the same

That's a bummer!

Cerebum · Nov 19, 2022

MattKing said:
Where was your HC-110 made, and what is the best before date, and what is the catalogue number? That will tell us which "new" HC-110 you have.

Catalogue number 501 0541
Exp 2024-05
Made in Germany

removedacct2 · Nov 19, 2022

Cerebum said:
Is it possible that the Bellini is stronger?

maybe... or better said, a slightly different formula. I think HC-110 is patent locked. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/new-hc-110-formula.169322/page-21

Alex Benjamin · Nov 19, 2022

The available data sheet from Kodak for HC-110 — at least the one I have and can still find on the web — dates from 2017, but the new HC-110 dates from 2019. As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), they did not republished a new data sheet after that. So we are left with assuming that the development times are the same, even though knowing the formula has changed but not knowing if these changes have any impact on development times.

This, it goes without saying, applies not only to development times of films published on the Kodak data sheet but of all films for which there are suggested development times in the Massive Dev Chart. There it's even worse: no way of knowing if the development times are still the same, and no way of knowing (unless noted, which doesn't happen much, from what I say) if the development time written is for the old or new HC-110.

This has bothered me enough that I switched to Ilford's Ilfotec HC, vowing never to touch HC-110 again.

Cerebum · Nov 19, 2022

I had a read of the earlier thread, it went so far over my head lol anyway, it may be that the one I have is the original syrup, it certainly is syrupy and is hard to measure with a syringe. I will just have to shoot loads of film so I can experiment with dev times. What a shame

Cerebum · Nov 19, 2022

Alex Benjamin said:
The available data sheet from Kodak for HC-110 — at least the one I have and can still find on the web — dates from 2017, but the new HC-110 dates from 2019. As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), they did not republished a new data sheet after that. So we are left with assuming that the development times are the same, even though knowing the formula has changed but not knowing if these changes have any impact on development times.

This, it goes without saying, applies not only to development times of films published on the Kodak data sheet but of all films for which there are suggested development times in the Massive Dev Chart. There it's even worse: no way of knowing if the development times are still the same, and no way of knowing (unless noted, which doesn't happen much, from what I say) if the development time written is for the old or new HC-110.

This has bothered me enough that I switched to Ilford's Ilfotec HC, vowing never to touch HC-110 again.

I feel the same. I have a bottle to work through so will be able to lay down some good development times. The problem then is that this formula may not be available when mine runs out. HC110 is brilliant for expired film so I will just have to bite the bullet and buy the Euro HC. At least that has data you can rely on.

MattKing · Nov 19, 2022

Cerebum said:
Catalogue number 501 0541
Exp 2024-05
Made in Germany

This means it is the new, new stuff, not the "new" stuff that was produced briefly ~ 2019 in the USA.

Cerebum said:
My first experience with HC110 was with the Bellini version (Euro110)

That isn't HC-110. That is a product that Bellini made/makes in the hope that it would somewhat mimic HC-110. It probably is close, and times that work with it are decent starting times for starting to use HC-110, but I wouldn't expect a 1 for 1 equivalency.
How do the times you used compare with the Kodak recommended times?

Keith Tapscott. · Nov 20, 2022

Cerebum said:
Apologies if this has been covered but I searched and couldn't find what I was looking for

My first experience with HC110 was with the Bellini version (Euro110) and I was hugely impressed. When the bottle ended I bought some genuine Kodak HC110 and my results haven't been as good. All the rolls I have developed looked like they needed another minute. I know there is a diluted version of HC110 available in Europe but mine is supposed to be the full strength. Has anyone else experienced this? Is it possible that the Bellini is stronger? I would love to hear of others experiences as I have loads of this stuff left

From a friend of mine who posts regularly on the FADU forum, the new version provides identical results to the old version. He has been using HC110 for over thirty years.

Cerebum · Nov 20, 2022

MattKing said:
This means it is the new, new stuff, not the "new" stuff that was produced briefly ~ 2019 in the USA.

That isn't HC-110. That is a product that Bellini made/makes in the hope that it would somewhat mimic HC-110. It probably is close, and times that work with it are decent starting times for starting to use HC-110, but I wouldn't expect a 1 for 1 equivalency.
How do the times you used compare with the Kodak recommended times?

Brilliant, thank you. That means I will have consistency moving forward. I have found that the Bellini produced slightly thicker negatives using the same times. Both were nice though, its just the hc110 ones were noticeably thinner. They both also handle expired film beautifully. 1:119 stand was almost too thin. If I use it for stand again I will probably go with 1:100. I am comparing them to results from Bellini, stock id-11 and rodinal. One thing to bear in mind here is that despite the fact that I have thrown myself into film for the last couple of years, compared to you guys I am still a novice so I will occasionally talk rubbish, sorry

Cerebum · Nov 20, 2022

Keith Tapscott. said:
From a friend of mine who posts regularly on the FADU forum, the new version provides identical results to the old version. He has been using HC110 for over thirty years.

Brilliant, thanks I love FADU, the guys there are ace, also, its quite possible the problem lies with me doing something wrong

alanrockwood · Nov 20, 2022

antonio_b said:
maybe... or better said, a slightly different formula. I think HC-110 is patent locked. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/new-hc-110-formula.169322/page-21

No. Any patent on HC-110 would have expired decades ago, that is unless some new patents were acquired. When I say "new" I don't mean some sort of patent renewal. A patent cannot be renewed. Additional patents could only be relevant to HC-110 if new inventions were applied to the product.

miha · Nov 20, 2022

MattKing said:
This means it is the new, new stuff, not the "new" stuff that was produced briefly ~ 2019 in the USA.

Out of interest, does this mean:

- HC110 is again made by Tetenal?
- All other Kodak amateur photochemistry is again made in Germany, possibly Tetenal?

MattKing · Nov 20, 2022

miha said:
Out of interest, does this mean:

- HC110 is again made by Tetenal?
- All other Kodak amateur photochemistry is again made in Germany, possibly Tetenal?

There have also been reliable reports of new, new HC-110 made in China, with Sino Promise labelling, and the old Tetenal production catalogue number. Those reports ccame from Asia, not North America or Europe.
And there was at least some indications that when USA markets started seeing USA produced HC-110, in European markets the HC-110 was still the old catalogue number and still made in Germany. Speculation at that time was rampant, but I saw indications there was still in inventory some pre-2019 German produced HC-110.
I'm unsure of what the current situation is. My Sino Promise contact hasn't responded recently to enquiries.

removedacct2 · Nov 20, 2022

miha said:
Out of interest, does this mean:

- HC110 is again made by Tetenal?
- All other Kodak amateur photochemistry is again made in Germany, possibly Tetenal?

for HC-110, probably Tetenal or Calbe, these are the two manufacturers or photochemicals in Germany, besides Adox recent own factory.

The new bottle HC-110 I bought, this sommer, has same catalogue number 501 0541 but is indeed a little but different, slighly clearer and more fluid. I use same dev times than before, felt no noticeable difference.

btw, Kodak Alaris has no business in this. The company is SinoPromise as it says on the label "Made in Germany for SinoPromise, Hong-Kong", which made me smile because I had expected "Made in China for XYZ". Kodak Alaris sold chemicals and papers to chineses.

removedacct2 · Nov 20, 2022

MattKing said:
There have also been reliable reports of new, new HC-110 made in China, with Sino Promise labelling, and the old Tetenal production catalogue number. Those reports ccame from Asia, not North America or Europe.

my last comment crossed yours.... not reports. HC-110 in Europe IS SinoPromise made in Germany.
this is the current bottle of HC-110 I bought from Maco (ie. Hans O. Mahn Gmbh):

miha · Nov 20, 2022

MattKing said:
There have also been reliable reports of new, new HC-110 made in China, with Sino Promise labelling, and the old Tetenal production catalogue number. Those reports ccame from Asia, not North America or Europe.
And there was at least some indications that when USA markets started seeing USA produced HC-110, in European markets the HC-110 was still the old catalogue number and still made in Germany. Speculation at that time was rampant, but I saw indications there was still in inventory some pre-2019 German produced HC-110.
I'm unsure of what the current situation is. My Sino Promise contact hasn't responded recently to enquiries.

Thanks Matt. What about T-MAX developer and it's origin?

Nitroplait · Nov 20, 2022

Cerebum said:
..They both also handle expired film beautifully. 1:119 stand was almost too thin. If I use it for stand again I will probably go with 1:100...

Remember you should use minimum 5-6ml of HC110 pr. roll, that is sometimes difficult with those high dilutions.

MattKing · Nov 20, 2022

miha said:
Thanks Matt. What about T-MAX developer and it's origin?

Who knows - although it seems that T-Max RS was gone forever before the transition to SinoPromise.

miha · Nov 21, 2022

MattKing said:
Who knows - although it seems that T-Max RS was gone forever before the transition to SinoPromise.

Maybe someone who purchased T-MAX dev. recently cares to disclose the "Made in..." text from the bottle?

New hc110, is it as strong as the original

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