New half frame camera from Agfaphoto

pentaxuser · Mar 9, 2023

Huss said:
Which loops us back to the 50mm 5.6 claim!

The answer to which is what? I still can't work it out. Can I phrase my question more simply perhaps as follows: Does this camera have a 50mm F5.6 lens and if not what does it have?

pentaxuser

Huss · Mar 9, 2023

pentaxuser said:
The answer to which is what? I still can't work it out. Can I phrase my question more simply perhaps as follows: Does this camera have a 50mm F5.6 lens and if not what does it have?

pentaxuser

It is marked 50mm f 5.6, but most of us do not believe that. Which is why I want to get hold of one and test it next to my Kodak H35, as I am pretty sure they are the same camera.
At the moment the Agfa is not available for sale in the US through regular channels.

xkaes · Mar 10, 2023

Regardless of the focal length, at f5.6 with a shutter of 1/120, you would have to use ISO 12-15 speed film to get a correct exposure in a sunny location.

One possibility is that it sets the f-stop to f5.6 when the flash is used -- but is normally f11

Some of the SUPERHEADZ adn other 35mm P&S cameras open the aperture when the flash is used, for example, so it's not unheard of. Many 110 cameras with flashes did the same thing

Huss · Mar 10, 2023

All you gotta do is look at the exposures/pics the reviewer posted on 35mmc using iso 400 film to see that it is not an f5.6 lens.

pentaxuser · Mar 11, 2023

Huss said:
All you gotta do is look at the exposures/pics the reviewer posted on 35mmc using iso 400 film to see that it is not an f5.6 lens.

Doesn't that contravene the law. I am pretty sure it contravenes the law as it pertains to "Trading Standards" in the U.K.?

However as few seem concerned about a company allegedly doing this and I will not be buying this camera I may as well bow out now

pentaxuser

Don_ih · Mar 11, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Doesn't that contravene the law

I've been wondering that, also.

Huss · Mar 11, 2023

Don Heisz said:
I've been wondering that, also.

I was going to say does it matter? As these are just basic zero input cameras. But then I saw in the comments section to that in-depth review that one person said he would get it for when he needed a faster lens.
So he actually would be misled.

Huss · Mar 11, 2023

I feel kinda bad to think about doing this, but seeing that I can get a beautiful N80 for less money than this Agfa, I wouldn’t feel too bad to buy one and return it after testing it IF my tests show it is not a 50mm f 5.6 lens.
Shooting it alongside my Kodak H35 will demonstrate that.

Of course, if I find out it IS a 50mm 5.6 lens, I’ll keep it. I have a feeling there is little chance of that.

Don_ih · Mar 11, 2023

Huss said:
I feel kinda bad to think about doing this, but seeing that I can get a beautiful N80 for less money than this Agfa, I wouldn’t feel too bad to buy one and return it after testing it IF my tests show it is not a 50mm f 5.6 lens.
Shooting it alongside my Kodak H35 will demonstrate that.

Of course, if I find out it IS a 50mm 5.6 lens, I’ll keep it. I have a feeling there is little chance of that.

Unless the camera is three inches thick, you can't have a 50mm lens recessed that far into a camera body.

xkaes · Mar 11, 2023

Don Heisz said:
Unless the camera is three inches thick, you can't have a 50mm lens recessed that far into a camera body.

You nailed it.

This is not this first time in history that there has been a lack of "truth in advertising".

Get OVA it!!!!

Don_ih · Mar 11, 2023

xkaes said:
Get OVA it!

We all gotta talk about something and the soap operas don't air on the weekend.

MattKing · Mar 11, 2023

Well I agree that printing "50mm F5.6" on the front of a camera would tend to surprise us here, I think you might have trouble convincing a Court that that shorthand designation for something a fair bit more detailed and complex would be likely to intentionally and meaningfully mislead most of the intended market for these cameras.
Can you point to evidence that there is a universal understanding of that shorthand?

Huss · Mar 11, 2023

What does OVA mean? Is it an acronym? Optically Vague Aperture?

Don_ih · Mar 12, 2023

MattKing said:
Can you point to evidence that there is a universal understanding of that shorthand?

A universal understanding of the fact that 50mm means the space between the film plane and the lens is 50mm? And a universal understanding that f5.6 means that the maximum size iris that lets light through from the lens to the film is 50/5.6mm or 9mm? A universal understanding of the what the terms mean? Of course not.

pentaxuser · Mar 12, 2023

MattKing said:
Well I agree that printing "50mm F5.6" on the front of a camera would tend to surprise us here, I think you might have trouble convincing a Court that that shorthand designation for something a fair bit more detailed and complex would be likely to intentionally and meaningfully mislead most of the intended market for these cameras.
Can you point to evidence that there is a universal understanding of that shorthand?

Matt it sounds like it's "open season" for misleading labelling and the great thing is that it may not be an offence

So can I ask would it be a provable offence in a Canadian law court if this was on the front of say a Nikon/Hasselblad lens and accompanied by product literature that essentially said the same?

Now admittedly the only literature I have is the link from the opening post and this may not replicate accurately what Lupus sends out with the camera but it seems almost inconceivable that the article has made such a mistake

Maybe what will work in the camera maker's favour in a court of law is the somewhat relaxed attitude to such matters as accuracy in product literature that is being expressed here in Photrio assuming it reflects what appears to be the new "psyche" on such matters

pentaxuser

MattKing · Mar 12, 2023

Where does it say anything in that photo about 50mm being a focal length, or F5.6 is an aperture? It doesn't say what those numbers refer to on the camera.
It does, however, say this in the accompanying Amazon description:

PERFECT FOR OUTDOORS & INDOORS SHOOTING: One button fully automatic point and shoot camera with 1/120s shutter speed, 50mm lens, fixed focusing, has an aperture of F5.6 perfect for daytime scenes. Built-in flash, recommended using 1 AAA alkaline battery and the flash has 10-15 seconds recycle time, it’s perfect for night time or party shoot. (AAA battery is not included)

So yes, if the lens is not a 50mm lens, and the aperture is not F5.6, that combination of the photograph and the description may very well breach something, although it would be more likely not be a criminal or quasi-criminal breach, but rather grounds for a civil claim. Around here, proving criminal fraud is fairly tough, and that would likely be the only "government" remedy. We have no "trade practices" legislation, although the consumer protection legislation does set up some remedies for intentionally misleading communications that are intended to induce people to buy things.
It may be more relevant to question whether it breaches Amazon's rules.
A Nikon brochure would be more likely to be construed strictly than a poorly labelled camera.

Don_ih · Mar 13, 2023

The bizarre thing, of course, is that no one would want 50mm on a half frame point-and-shoot. 21-28 would be best. And depth of field of 50mm at 5.6 is pretty sad.

@MattKing --- if the 50mm on the lens doesn't refer to the lens, what does it refer to? Labelling with the appearance of identifying is pretty straightforwardly understood as something people in general would be inclined to believe is accurate. And whatever is "universally" understood (which is nothing, nothing at all), it is most definitely a convention to write the actual approximate focal length of the lens on the lens.

MattKing · Mar 13, 2023

I don't disagree that it is at least confusing. And it is almost certainly inaccurate. I'm commenting on whether all that mess could result in some sort of legal action - not likely!
The language in the product description is far more precise, so it would be far easier to base any enforcement action on that.

pentaxuser · Mar 13, 2023

MattKing said:
Where does it say anything in that photo about 50mm being a focal length, or F5.6 is an aperture?

What do you think it might then relate to, Matt?

pentaxuser

Huss · Mar 13, 2023

Still not available in the USA in the Agfa version.

MattKing · Mar 13, 2023

pentaxuser said:
What do you think it might then relate to, Matt?

pentaxuser

That doesn't really matter.
What I'm referencing is something that you brought up - whether it is a matter that might attract legal consequences.
The strange and vague letters and numbers on the front of the camera aren't going to do that on their own. The much more detailed information in the description might.

pentaxuser · Mar 14, 2023

MattKing said:
The strange and vague letters and numbers on the front of the camera aren't going to do that on their own.

OK I just wondered if you might have cared to speculate what purpose the 50mm and f5.6 on the camera lens might otherwise have referred to

They didn't seem particularly strange and vague to me

pentaxuser

Huss · Mar 14, 2023

pentaxuser said:
OK I just wondered if you might have cared to speculate what purpose the 50mm and f5.6 on the camera lens might otherwise have referred to

They didn't seem particularly strange and vague to me

pentaxuser

Yea, they don't seem strange or vague to me either. Clearly says 50mm F=5.6. Which also clearly is BS.

MattKing · Mar 14, 2023

When it comes to considering legal remedies, you need to put yourself into other people's shoes.
They are strange and vague because they don't say anything about referring in any way to lens focal length, or aperture. They are just (apparently) a distance measurement of some sort, and a number with an F in front of it. Or alternatively, they could just as well be a decorative element, copied from another camera.
We are likely to take them to mean something to do with focal length and aperture of a lens because they use a shorthand that we are familiar with, but that shorthand assumes a whole bunch of prior knowledge and applied convention, and that knowledge and convention is far from universal. And (Huss being a possible exception) we are not the target market for this product.
When you start thinking about suing someone or criminally/administratively charging them with an offence, good luck if the falsehood that you are alleging depends on an assumption that is only understood by a relatively small segment of the population - particularly if that segment isn't who the product is marketed to.
The language in the product description turns the assumption into a certainty.

Roger Cole · Mar 14, 2023

Don Heisz said:
A universal understanding of the fact that 50mm means the space between the film plane and the lens is 50mm? And a universal understanding that f5.6 means that the maximum size iris that lets light through from the lens to the film is 50/5.6mm or 9mm? A universal understanding of the what the terms mean? Of course not.

But that's not necessarily true. A true telephoto design will have less distance between the film plane and lens for the same image scale, yet is universally expressed as the equivalent non-telephoto lens focal length that would form an image of the same scale.

Of course this isn't such a lens, but that's not the point; the point is simply that this definition is also simplistic and not always correct for other cases where its use is well established.

New half frame camera from Agfaphoto

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