New (as of 2019) airport CT scanners

[pentaxuser]

Air cargo is handled differently compared to passenger flights.

Just today I have had a talk with my film distributor in Tokyo, who had shipped the Acros II for my tests to me (of course by air cargo). I ordered Industrial 100 this week.
He said no problems with X-Ray because of air cargo being safe for films.
No need for hysteria. Now all - film manufacturers and film photographers - are aware of this challenge. And with hand inspection a good and easy solution is already there.
There is a good chance that hand inspection will become the new norm, on all airports on which CT scanners get installed.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning can you say what the difference is in scanning air cargo and why this cannot be applied to passenger flights. Based on your statement this would appear to be simplest solution.

Do you have any information that leads you to believe that hand inspection will be the new norm?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning can you say what the difference is in scanning air cargo and why this cannot be applied to passenger flights. Based on your statement this would appear to be simplest solution.

I've heard of some operation structures, but from a secondary source. As I am currently not 100% certain about it (I have no official confirmation), I will not describe it in the public.
And how it is made there internally honestly is of no special interest to me.
As said above, Kodak is currently shipping millions of films this way and it works without problems. Lots of film distributors using it, too.
It works for commercial products. Period. That is all I need to know as film end user buying new films shipped this way to me.

Do you have any information that leads you to believe that hand inspection will be the new norm?
Thanks
pentaxuser

For me it is the most likely / obvious solution. Because
- it is a workflow that is in operation for many years at lots of airports; it works very well
- it is extremely easy done
- no big investments needed
- no new machinery needed
- you just need the cheap test strips for explosives
- even idiots can do this simple test ; no high-qualified (expensive) staff needed.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Christiaan Phleger]

Use these https://www.kodak.com/uploadedFiles...2_Do_NOT_X-RAY_Avery_5164_Shipping_Labels.pdf

Hand Check a smile and a good positive attitude with these stuck all over it and we'll be good. I told the TSA agent that the manufacturers Kodak and Fuji did their own tests and it was toast after *just once*. I stressed *just once* and said thanks for hand checking. She said they had training coming up and I hope the training includes it.

I think if we are all cool and have labels and they'll see us a mile away. Don't X-ray it tho.

 

[destroya]

stickers are fine and dnady, but what if Im not in the USA, where hand checks are not required if asked? do I trust in the system or risk returning with bad film? its tough, but not a dumb question. I decided no intentional travel until more details are given about hand checking film and not. my last trip overseas I brought 140 rolls and I cant afford to replace that film along with the missed photos, which could be priceless.

my son laughed when I told him this. "now we get to see just how bigt he film revival is" was his reply. I guess its true. if it is in fact large, then we should have rights for hand checks of film. imagine if the scanners erased hard drives or flash drives/ digital storage cards. what would happen then? its just a fact of life. and if it doesn't work, then ill need to shop for a new used digital camera for travel. I would hate that, but I cant let this issues prevent me from living and enjoying life. just another speed bump to deal with going forward.

john

 

[pentaxuser]

stickers are fine and dnady, but what if Im not in the USA, where hand checks are not required if asked? do I trust in the system or risk returning with bad film? its tough, but not a dumb question. I decided no intentional travel until more details are given about hand checking film and not. my last trip overseas I brought 140 rolls and I cant afford to replace that film along with the missed photos, which could be priceless.

john

Yes as things stand in the U.K.( I cannot speak for the rest of Europe) the picture may not be as bright in my opinion as Henning has painted it. Until we see a rule that makes security staff hand inspect if requested then it is not being a "dismal Jimmy" if you are not prepared to risk arriving with a few dozen or even less films in case you meet security staff who refuse to do a hand inspection.

pentaxuser

 

[abruzzi]

stickers are fine and dnady, but what if Im not in the USA, where hand checks are not required if asked? do I trust in the system or risk returning with bad film?

If its just the old X-ray machines, I'd take the chance that a single pass won't hurt it. The new CT machines, not so much. Depending where you're traveling to, and your available time, I'd either look at shipping the film (while big bulk cargo pallets seem to be safe, I don't know about a lone person at a UPS depot with a small box.) or I'd look for a local lab to develop before returning.

This past summer I flew to Russia and I knew they were unlikely to honor requests for hand checks. I had two unconnected flights to get to Moscow and two unconnected back. So El Paso to Scranton and JFK to Moscow both hand checks, on the return, Moscow to JFK went through the X-Ray and Scranton to El Paso was hand checked. Then we took high speed train from Moscow to St. Petersburg, which had X-Rays both times. Those were X-Rays that all my film went through. But in Russia, lots of places you go--museums and such--have small X-Ray machines. In those cases I sent my camera and film through, but fortunately I would only have two or three rolls with me, so most of my film sat at the apartment and didn't have to undergo that. The fastest film I had with me on the trip was a couple of rolls of Superia 1600.

After returning home and developing, nothing had noticeable issues. But these new machines, depending how widespread they become, will seriously change the calculus. I'm taking a trip next week to Mexico, and I expect to be fine, but when I disembark at the Léon airport, I'll keep an eye out for what kind of machines the security has. Caveat emptor and do you research before leaving on a trip.

 

[NB23]

Hand inspection in London? No way. That airport doesn’t give a sheet.
When I asked for hand inspection they bazooked everything of mine and watched me like hawks.

 

[wiltw]

Hand inspection in London? No way. That airport doesn’t give a sheet.
When I asked for hand inspection they bazooked everything of mine and watched me like hawks.

Yes, over many decades of travel through London Heathrow, I have discovered that NONE of the agents speak English, or they hire only the DEAF...that conclusion comes from always being ignored whenever I have verbal communication with them.

 

[pentaxuser]

Well there may be some ingenious ways to mitigate the number of times your film has to pass through scanners, as demonstrated by abruzzi but can anyone see most of the young new film users bothering to do this? Yet it appears these users are film's future

I will only celebrate with an extra strong cup of Yorkshire tea when responding positively to a hand inspection request becomes mandatory at all airports and other points of departure from one country to another

pentaxuser

 

[jvo]

foolproof method to guarantee a hand inspection for all flights, all destinations!

slap a label on saying "danger" (multiple languages, of course)... you are guaranteed a hand inspection and extra special handling.

(beware your photographic opportunities may be limited from your cell though- but you will have film when you get out!)

 

[koraks]

slap a label on saying "danger" (multiple languages, of course)... you are guaranteed a hand inspection and extra special handling.

With the hand inspection following the extra thorough irradiation sequence, of course.

 

[koraks]

Ok just went through security at the local, small airport of Eindhoven, The Netherlands. All lanes are now CT. I explained the security staff about film and CT and that it's not a good combination. Staff reacted extremely friendly, very understanding, the security officer immediately called another colleague so he also was informed about the phenomenon and my film was very politely handed to the hand inspection officer who handed it back to me with a friendly smile.

The staff indicated that they are aware that some items shouldn't be passed through the new CT scanners, so I think that helped.

So, it can work. I did print the Kodak xray label and put it into the transparent bag with my film. Having very polite and friendly staff also helps, I suppose...

 

[destroya]

[QUOTE="koraks, post: 2255100, member: 88524"......... Having very polite and friendly staff also helps, I suppose...[/QUOTE]

that seems to be a key in all things in life. its all up to who you have the luck of interacting with. if you get the right person, things will be ok. but is it worth the risk? hopefully we, the film shooting community, can find a little luck sometime soon and make things more compliant to what most think is our silly whim of still shooting film.

john

 

[abruzzi]

Staff reacted extremely friendly, very understanding, the security officer immediately called another colleague so he also was informed about the phenomenon and my film was very politely handed to the hand inspection officer who handed it back to me with a friendly smile.

The thing that surprised me on my Russia trip that summer was JFK. El Paso is a small airport, Scranton is a tiny airport, but JFK is large, with lots of people, it’s old so it doesn’t seem to be well designed like a modern airport to get a lot of people through security in a short time. I expected the hand-check request to receive some push back. But they were friendly, courteous, and receptive to courtesy.

(I was also worried that JFK would be staffed by New Yorkers. When you live in a city of 12 million people you tend to develop a protective shell that can often surface brusqueness or even rudeness. But they were very nice.)

 

[Samuel Dilworth]

Hand inspection in London? No way. That airport doesn’t give a sheet.

There are many airports serving London. Which one?

I went through Orly airport a few days ago. Not sure if they use CT scanners yet (how can you tell?), but I asked for a hand check and got it. Guy asked supervisor, she bellowed at him to give it to so-and-so, he checked it (for explosives?) with some kind of wand. Took a minute.

A roll of Fomapan 200 in my FM2 went through the scanner because I wasn’t organised enough to prevent it in time. The camera appeared on the operator’s display in plan view, so x-rays must have travelled across the width of the film. Anyone know if one orientation is better than another to reduce risk? Curious to see how it looks after development.

Many people (millions worldwide?) must be travelling with film these days. I can’t help but think we’d have more of an outcry about this if a CT scan was guaranteed to ruin your film (as opposed to causing minor problems once in a while).

 

[AgX]

Not sure if they use CT scanners yet (how can you tell?).

Some pages back there is a listing of model names.

 

[Agulliver]

Hand inspection in London? No way. That airport doesn’t give a sheet.
When I asked for hand inspection they bazooked everything of mine and watched me like hawks.

Which London airport?
London is served by City, Gatwick, Heathrow, Luton, Stanstead and Southend. I've probably flown over 150 times out of LGW, LHR and LTN....never come across a security bod who was rude but they don't like passengers who they feel are in any way aggressive. They're trained to spot the difference between nerves, anxiety, anger and aggression. I get quite bad anxiety and have gone through security stimming (fidgeting with my hands), over-talking, sweating with no issues. I've also *never* come across someone who doesn't speak English. But they do all react negatively to anything they perceive as anger.

My cameras do sometimes cause interest among security people - but never at any London airports. Just this past Friday I was asked at Funchal (Madeira) to take all my EIGHT cameras out of my carry on bag for a hand inspection. Which I duly did without complaining. There's never any point losing patience with the security procedures or staff. My wife, who doesn't take any cameras or electronic items on board, often gets pulled up because she has a shorter temper and feels "put upon" by the whole process. They pick up on that and ensure she's patted down and checked for explosives even though she never sets off any alarms. I get slightly amused because I do work with explosives...so if they swab my clothes there's a slight chance they'll find something. I have once been selected for an explosives swab in 22 years of regular flying.

Regarding the new CT machines, they will be larger than the old X-ray scanners and probably resemble doughnut shaped tunnels rather than your bag passing through a square aperture. Allow extra time, arrive 20 minutes earlier than you usually would, and request a hand inspection. They're not obliged to (outside the USA) but if you're not in a hurry and not at all aggressive I am willing to bet that most airport staff will be fine with your request. A polite "Could you inspect my photographic film by hand please, I am informed the new CT scanner you're using will damage it" should be fine.

For my recent trip LGW-FNC and back again, no CT scanners in those airports yet. Four out of 9 films developed (one pushed to ISO1600) and no issues whatsoever.

 

[removed account4]

Hand inspection in London? No way. That airport doesn’t give a sheet.
When I asked for hand inspection they bazooked everything of mine and watched me like hawks.

i've had similar experiences at heathrow, CDG, frankfurt and basel. the good old us of a was the only place i was able to get a hand inspect.
but that was a few years ago maybe things have changed..

 

[Henning Serger]

stickers are fine and dnady, but what if Im not in the USA, where hand checks are not required if asked?
john

John, outside the USA most of the machines are still the former X-Ray machines which are safe for films up to ISO 800/30°. During the last 20 years all my films on travel - including Provia 400X pushed to EI 1600/33° - have gone through these machines, and I have never had any problem.
And when you have higher speed films like Delta 3200 or TMZ with, explain the security personal, show the high speed film and you get your hand inspection.
I know of photographers being a bit paranoid concerning X-ray of films at airports in general, who have simply always put 1-2 Delta 3200 or TMZ in their film bag (they did not use or need the high speed), referred to these films, asked for hand inspection and always got a hand inspection of all their films.
So having Delta 3200 / TMZ with you as a simple trick to always get hand inspection.

So far we have not one single evidence, not one single report of a rejection of hand inspection at those airports which have now the new CT scanners.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Deleted member 88956]

John, outside the USA most of the machines are still the former X-Ray machines which are safe for films up to ISO 800/30°. During the last 20 years all my films on travel - including Provia 400X pushed to EI 1600/33° - have gone through these machines, and I have never had any problem.
And when you have higher speed films like Delta 3200 or TMZ with, explain the security personal, show the high speed film and you get your hand inspection.
I know of photographers being a bit paranoid concerning X-ray of films at airports in general, who have simply always put 1-2 Delta 3200 or TMZ in their film bag (they did not use or need the high speed), referred to these films, asked for hand inspection and always got a hand inspection of all their films.
So having Delta 3200 / TMZ with you as a simple trick to always get hand inspection.

So far we have not one single evidence, not one single report of a rejection of hand inspection at those airports which have now the new CT scanners.

Best regards,
Henning

This is not correct, I have at least twice witnessed film hand inspection rejection. But I dont see any point of trying to get this kind of statistics. There is no hard rule and that is the problem, irrespective whether anyone got rejected or not. I`m sure being polite helps, just polite is not a regulation.

 

[pentaxuser]

So far we have not one single evidence, not one single report of a rejection of hand inspection at those airports which have now the new CT scanners.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning, to whom does the word "we" refer? Is this "we" as in we on Photrio who have reported on our experiences or we as in some actual source you have obtained figures from?
Yes it is clear that not every airport has yet got the "problem" scanners but aren't we talking about the future rather than the present and I have yet to see any reason presented to us that these problem scanners will not to be extended to all airports in the future and based on the speed of spread of new technology it would seem sensible to assume it will arrive everywhere sooner rather than later

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Henning Serger]

This is not correct, I have at least twice witnessed film hand inspection rejection.

Please read my post again!
I have written rejection of hand inspection when the new CT scanners are in use.

Of course there have been rejections in the past: At airports with the film-safe X-ray machines. Because there hand-inspection is not necessary and additional work for the staff.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Please read my post again!
I have written rejection of hand inspection when the new CT scanners are in use.

Of course there have been rejections in the past: At airports with the film-safe X-ray machines. Because there hand-inspection is not necessary and additional work for the staff.

Best regards,
Henning

Perhaps you should read mine too, there is no regulation for hand inspection, we can hope it will come, but I seriously doubt that.

 

[wiltw]

I went through Orly airport a few days ago. Not sure if they use CT scanners yet (how can you tell?), but I asked for a hand check and got it. Guy asked supervisor, she bellowed at him to give it to so-and-so, he checked it (for explosives?) with some kind of wand. Took a minute.

Folks, posts #1 , #6 and #33 of this thread ALL have links to articles WITH PHOTOS of the new CT scanners.

But to save folks the effort...
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/new-airport-scanners.170709/page-9#post-2248157

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning, to whom does the word "we" refer? Is this "we" as in we on Photrio who have reported on our experiences or we as in some actual source you have obtained figures from?

No, not only photrio. Other reliable sources.

Yes it is clear that not every airport has yet got the "problem" scanners but aren't we talking about the future rather than the present and I have yet to see any reason presented to us that these problem scanners will not to be extended to all airports in the future and based on the speed of spread of new technology it would seem sensible to assume it will arrive everywhere sooner rather than later
Thanks
pentaxuser

As explained in one of my postings above, there are much much more reasonable reasons that the practice we currently see at all the US airports with the new CT scanners - hand inspection - will also be the case at the other airports which will install these scanners in the future.
Airlines and airports want passengers and business.

Some members here from the "doom and gloom church" claim that there will not be hand inspection with CT scanners outside the US.
But they don't give any real evidence at all so far for their claim. None.
And one member here reported that at Eindhoven airport in the Netherlands new CT scanners are already installed: And he has got a hand inspection for his films there without any problem.
So it works without any problems in the US, it works at Eindhoven. Other airports see it, a practice working fine. If now one airport means to say "no", impacted passengers can protest and refer to the US - with their extremely high airport safety standards - and can say "hey, even all the safety-obsessed US airports are offering hand-inspection, so you can do, too". Passengers are customers, and they can build up pressure. And airports are in a certain competition, too.
So if you have fear, don't waste your time here. Completely wrong place. Photrio is not responsible for safety practice at airports. Adress your concern to the airports you are using (most). Talk to them!

I am for about 14 years now here on apug/photrio. During this time I've read so much pessimistic views, so much fears, so much negativity, so much film doom-and-gloom, so much FUD, so much "That-will-be-the-last-nail-in-film's-coffin".......but 95% of these negative predictions have been proven completely wrong. Period.
Just remember when the new investor Pemberstone invested in Harman technology / Ilford Photo in 2015. So many of the doom-and-gloom preachers predicted their death. It was one of the most disgusting threads in apugs/photrios history (you find it in the Ilford subforum). So much bullshit from people with no knowledge about the topic. And now Ilford Photo is in its best shape, has invested in new, improved products, offering mere products, and is successfully in new marketing strategies.
Some people should be really ashamed about what they have written at that time.
Much to much of this "committing suicide because of fear of the death" here over all the years on photrio.

I will continue to take my films with me when I need to travel by plane.

Best regards,
Henning