New Affordable Table top film processor !

[F80p]

Hi all, i am upto something interesting these days. My entrepreneurial spirit doesnt keep quite. I was thinking of building a film processor which does BW, C-41 and E-6 one or two rolls(even sheets) at a time(or more). Would be great for people who dont have access to good labs near their places. Also it will be a boon for people who want to see their pictures sooner than wait for weeks for them to return from lab(often humiliated by ill trained lab guys). I know JOBO ATL(and phototherm) is there but paying upwards of US$ 3k or $ 800(used) is difficult for many.

The idea came up from my being wary of travelling for developing and no access to BW and E-6 labs here in India. Do you think there is such a need for it among photographers world wide right now....as labs are closing everywhere and quality/consistency is a question. My plan comes to about US$ 300(approx). One advantage is: it is auto film loading so you dont have to be in dark anymore !!! If i am dreaming please correct me

P.S:Oh i forgot to write about this. This processor is computer controlled so you set times thru a simple software with less than a second accuracy.

 

[mrred]

Hi all, i am upto something interesting these days. My entrepreneurial spirit doesnt keep quite. I was thinking of building a film processor which does BW, C-41 and E-6 one or two rolls(even sheets) at a time(or more). Would be great for people who dont have access to good labs near their places. Also it will be a boon for people who want to see their pictures sooner than wait for weeks for them to return from lab(often humiliated by ill trained lab guys). I know JOBO ATL(and phototherm) is there but paying upwards of US$ 3k or $ 800(used) is difficult for many.

The idea came up from my being wary of travelling for developing and no access to BW and E-6 labs here in India. Do you think there is such a need for it among photographers world wide right now....as labs are closing everywhere and quality/consistency is a question. My plan comes to about US$ 300(approx). One advantage is: it is auto film loading so you dont have to be in dark anymore !!! If i am dreaming please correct me

P.S:Oh i forgot to write about this. This processor is computer controlled so you set times thru a simple software with less than a second accuracy.

I would buy one, assuming it worked.

 

[gmikol]

For $300, I'd be interested, depending on exactly how large, water/plumbing requirements, etc. Especially if it had easy adjustment of individual step times (for push/pull, specialty films with longer fixing times).

You have to figure out if it can be profitable if you only sell 50 or 100 units (I can't imagine there's that much demand for something like this).

Since this is not strictly a hybrid process idea, you may want to talk about this on APUG.org...there's a much larger audience there than here.

Please feel free to provide more details, like, is this a roller-transport machine, or something more like a dip-n-dunk? Temperature bath control? Availability of spare / replacement parts? 35mm and 120?

I would be happy even for 1 roll at a time. I imagine for many, 2 rolls at a time would be sufficient.

Looking forward to hearing more...

--Greg

 

[F80p]

Thanks for your reply(mrred & gmikol).
My main point of support for this is the fact that many labs are closing all over the world. After sometime, mail order will be the only option apart from self developing. Also in self developing you will not get consistency. So i am assuming that there will be a large demand. Its like this: shoot a roll, come home, place the roll in the machine, fill the chemicals, select the appropriate process on the computer, press start! 20-30 min later a C-41 film will be ready(for drying). This would be a great improvement over the present situation where some have to drive 10-20 miles for developing a roll. Forget all that...the user will be free to do his own thing and precisely too. No building darkroom at home!!
-sure push/pull, adjusting contrast in fine steps is possible. Every action will be programmable or a standard setting can be selected as in C-41/E-6. The best part will be software, so no playing with knobs
-i am still gauging the interest in this. The question which comes up is: Is 300 $ affordable enough to get most film users interested in buying it? 50-100 units is a bit low i feel. around 250/year would be a good figure.
-Dip and Dunk style.Its a robotic machine with actions just similar to using a patterson reel by hand. No touching exposed film part!
-I have planned for a tempered water bath, but also thinking about individual/separate heating the chemicals(no water bath). But this would raise the final price. Only freshwater plumbing will be needed. The smallest size maybe around 40cm by 40cm.
-Have not thought about spare parts in detail still i feel it shouldnt be a problem as the parts will be found in most countries.
-all rolls for sure.......possibly smaller size sheet also. 8x10 machine will be bigger.

Price should be still lower but shipping will eat up a large part

If there is anything more you want to ask, please do ask i will be gald

 

[gmikol]

Everything you've said sounds good so far. I think a single water bath should be fine for temperature management.

Would this system require the computer to stay connected during the entire process, or would the computer only need to be connected during programming?

This is a daylight processor, right? It doesn't require operation in darkness?

How long would it take you to produce a prototype machine and software?

--Greg

 

[F80p]

Thanks! The most difficult part in this would be temperature consistency. I will have to do extensive tests. The 'BOX' remains in daylight always. The computer is needed for operation. It can be made independent but that is more difficult. No need of darkroom at home!!! You will never have to depend on any lab/prolab for development. Along with a scanner and a printer you will have a complete system to give you freedom. I may take another 2 months to do this as the software takes time
I will try to do this asap as i have a day job.
Do you give your film to walmart type labs or pro-labs?
In a year how much dollars do you spend on processing only?

 

[Nikon Collector]

I'll buy one, so far it looks like you're talking about film, what about prints? I would think if you can do this the leap to printing is not that great. I would buy both.

 

[F80p]

I am not at all experienced in prints, so i dont know the technical details. However, i know that if i am able to do this device for film i can modify it for prints too.

I want to know more about the demand for such a thing in your countries from as many people as possible.

 

[i40west]

At $300 I would be very interested indeed.

Having it use an existing computer for control is not only attractive for cost, but it opens up interesting possibilities for customization. Just don't, don't, don't make it Windows-only; that would be a show-stopper.

Also, automatic film loading would not be important to me -- putting everything in a changing bag and loading a (stainless) reel takes me about four minutes, so it's not something I'm worried about.

 

[F80p]

Thanks Jeremy for your reply!
I know that most photographers use a Mac and i have never programmed on a MAC I can do a Windows and a Linux version. But if i can get a Mac from somewhere, i will do that version too. I know it is not tough, a slight variation thats all.

I wanted to make a single roll version for many young 'digital brainwashed' photographers who think having a darkroom at home is 'uncool'. If it is easy then young ones will be attracted. This point maybe wrong. Anyways, i have decide to make a 10 roll version too!

People keep giving me points about what features you would like in it just a Jeremy said above.

I am keeping a watch on this thread daily!!!!

 

[i40west]

Thanks Jeremy for your reply!
I know that most photographers use a Mac and i have never programmed on a MAC I can do a Windows and a Linux version. But if i can get a Mac from somewhere, i will do that version too. I know it is not tough, a slight variation thats all.

I do Mac programming, but I've never done anything with hardware control at all, so I'm not sure about that part of it. Still, if you can't do a Mac version, just document the interface so someone else can -- don't keep it a secret.

 

[jslabovitz]

I'm a Mac programmer, as well, although these days mostly write in Ruby, which is cross-platform.

I'd be interested in your processor, but probably only if I can (re)program it myself. One of the things I love about film processing, especially B&W, is that it's inherently open-source: I can mix my own chemicals and decide on my own times and sequences. I wouldn't want another proprietary system here, yet I would appreciate the efficiency of a desktop processor.

There's a thread over at APUG that you should read, where a guy is proposing a project that sounds very similar to yours. Perhaps you could even work together on it? In the thread, there are a lot of good suggestions on how such a thing might be controlled. Specifically, one of the last posts mentions a USB-controlled relay board, which I agree is probably the best solution for this sort of device.

See: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

--John

 

[PeterAM]

I would certainly be interested in something at that price. However, I think that shipping from India would be quite expensive and would substantially increase the total cost to the buyer.

 

[F80p]

If i cant do it i will surely help others do it Ultimately i want more people to shoot/discover film.
@John: Yes i read the whole thing. He is experienced and sometime i will mail him some of my questions. But before that there are certain engineering things to take care of.It will take some time. Doing this along with my regular job is difficult
It should be customizable...otherwise what is the joy in shooting BW?
Developing one roll at a time will be desktop size.
I am treating this thread as a place to collect info on peoples expectations from such a thing. $300 is a very rough estimate. I will try to lower still but talking about price of something which is yet to be built is wrong. Please, i am not promising things here. This is not only a commercial(and hobby) project but there is a social aspect as well. I will talk about it later when i have something concrete to show to you all.
@Peter: Yes shipping cost is a concern. But l will first make a working model, talk about costs later.

@To all:
Do you think auto film loading(in daylight) would be helpful? or you prefer to go to a darkplace or use a darkbag to load film.

 

[SWphoto]

Just found this thread. Daylight loading would be nice, but might complicate matters and add another level of complexity/cost. I think the key would be to offer a "Jobo-replacement" at a decent price. $300 would certainly be ballpark for many of us. I'd want something which is well-built, not overly complicated, flexible. Good luck!

 

[gmikol]

I wanted to make a single roll version for many young 'digital brainwashed' photographers who think having a darkroom at home is 'uncool'. If it is easy then young ones will be attracted. This point maybe wrong. Anyways, i have decide to make a 10 roll version too![/B]

Please make the smallest size capable of handling 2 reels of 35mm (so that it can do 120/220 as well). Doing E-6 one roll at a time would get tedious.

Can the processor be simplified if the user manually loads the reels? It seems like a lot of automation that could be eliminated.

If the reels were loaded manually, could it use stainless steel reels (Hewes-style)?

--Greg

 

[antoinek]

I would be interested at that price point as long as it is fully automated and configurable. I might even go for a kit I could assemble myself.

I've been giving some thought to building my own film processor. My general idea is to use a stainless tank and reels I already have. All that would be needed is an apparatus to invert the tank and to fill/drain it. Several issues would be how to connect plumbing to the opening on the tank cap, what type of pump to use that would avoid too much air mixed in with the fluid and what sort of valves to use.

Controls would be easy for me as I could just grab an inexpensive PLC off ebay. However, USB/serial/parallel based controls could also be used. For the time it would take to develop a few rolls I could use my laptop.

 

[F80p]

@Rick: Thanks for your input. Yes i know, simplicity will impress many. I have thought about such a replacement which uses their drums. But that would involve incorporating valves and pumps which i am afraid might start leaking when they age.Valves must be kept minimum. Minimum hardware to become a cause for breakage/failure. Also there is a good point about reducing complexity. If at all something happens with the hardware, common people must be able to fix it without racking their brains.
@gmikol: Single roll would include 135,120 and 220. Yes just yesterday i was thinking of such a thing to lessen the complexity and make use of the reels people have already bought. Certainly SS is preferred.
@antoinek: Thanks for your opinion. "fully automated" is subjective. Yes a 'KIT' where the user can make some of the parts himself to reduce costs is a good idea. I got stuck at the same point as you are. The connection with the tank to transfer the chemicals is difficult as many people have different models of tanks.
Keep the suggestions coming people

 

[gmikol]

This is where the "Kit" aspect of things come in. Maybe leave it up to the end user to modify a tank for appropriate tubing.

I'm sure some people might be reluctant to drill into a Jobo tank, but I certainly wouldn't have an issue drilling a couple of holes into the bottom of a SS tank or a Paterson tank. If the fill & drain rates were fast enough, I don't think there would be any uneven development.

--Greg

 

[Bob Carnie]

Hi There

I am the guy that you are referring too, and it must be noted we are not making this system for commercial sales rather we are building four machines for my labs specific use ,and at this point we are putting all the parts together, our system is dedicated for our operation, where we use Jobo tanks right up to 30x40 custom tanks for film process.
Our rotation device is two very large rubber rollers that can fit multiple tanks at the same time any tank system should work, our system is for production , large runs and large film and is not being designed to be an all automatic system, rather the chemicals will be at the side in a tempering bath and the chemicals will all be hand filled and dumped, we have not yet decided on the timer device.
It should be noted that I am not the technician , therefore what drive devices and on/off systems are not my specialty.
Once we have a working model that satisfiys my needs then we are posting the components on APUG, and Richard (technican) would accomodate request for parts, service or how to put it together.
All Parts for our system are to be sourced locally *Canada* as this has been the ongoing problem with our Jobo systems.
We have processed over a hundred thousand rolls/sheets of films on the three Jobo's we owned over the last 20 or so years, the machines owe us nothing, but as we intend to continue processing film for as long as it is being made we need a solution that suits our needs and may not be practical for other film users who want to produce their own film.

My only comment to the OP would be is that Jobo got out of the film game for a reason.
If your machine can be made in a way that parts are easy to find in different locals and service, then I think you may have a niche product that is viable to offer.
There is also a thread on APUG about a Chinese group that are designing a small Jobo system, and seem to be already taking orders.
I should stress to you that this is a very fickle market and only a very robust and easily serviced machine that can handle various tank systems out there may be of interest.

I'm a Mac programmer, as well, although these days mostly write in Ruby, which is cross-platform.

I'd be interested in your processor, but probably only if I can (re)program it myself. One of the things I love about film processing, especially B&W, is that it's inherently open-source: I can mix my own chemicals and decide on my own times and sequences. I wouldn't want another proprietary system here, yet I would appreciate the efficiency of a desktop processor.

There's a thread over at APUG that you should read, where a guy is proposing a project that sounds very similar to yours. Perhaps you could even work together on it? In the thread, there are a lot of good suggestions on how such a thing might be controlled. Specifically, one of the last posts mentions a USB-controlled relay board, which I agree is probably the best solution for this sort of device.

See: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

--John

 

[F80p]

Thanks Mr. Bob Carnie for your advice. Those points you said about the commercial success are true. This project of mine does have a commercial flavor no doubt, but its also a hobby project for myself. No matter how low the chinese group prices its product, i will still make my own...for myself. I hope you and Mr. Richard will build your design and your lab once again starts servicing people the way it used to. BTW i like the fact that you will support film development for film lovers sake.

I will follow your thread to pick up any important points or offer you mine if they are worth it

Thanks again.....

 

[cupcake_ham]

Glad I happened on this. When you have all the details, I'd love to see the finished product....and purchase one!

 

[sanking]

For $300 I would be interested, depending on how compact the unit is. I never had room for a Jobo so adapted to processing with other systems.

I assume this would process film with contnuous agitation? There are certainly advantages (even development) to continuous agtitaiton, but aslo disadvantages (reduced accutance). At this time I develop all of my B&W film with minimal agitatoin procedures in order to enhance accutance. Of course, this would not matter for color negative or C41 B&W film.


Sandy King

 

[taiwest]

For $300 dollars, I would certainly buy one. I am trying to determine how you can do so at that price. I have been building something similar for myself. I am using an arduino microprocessor controlling relays for the pumps, LCD and keypad, programmable development times. However I am still machining the parts I need for the link ups and fluid exchange. Microprocessor can also monitor a temperature probe for control, but at this time, I am just using a water jacket and a large aquarium heater.

 

[F80p]

Thanks for your replies! I was away on work for a few days. I know this work will keep me away from my film processor idea

@David: I cant give a deadline for the product. I am right now dividing time between my hobbies and work at office.
@Sanking: Thanks Lets see what size my model comes to.
@taiwest: Arduino is cool. I have not yet decided on mine. Price is also a very rough estimate. May overshoot or can be lower also. At this point i cannot talk about price. Good that you have already started. I am also looking for the aquarium heater...they can be cheap.