New (2019 version) HC-110 developer not the same?

Status
Not open for further replies.

kevin klein

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
194
Format
Large Format
I got the new HC-110 formulation and have found large crystal deposits formed at the bottom after opening and using it, it was just a month ago that I got it and it is making wonder if the reformulation is a scam to make you buy a new bottle or if they (Kodak) just wants to frustrate people into not buying it any more so they can stop making it.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
52,911
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
Which catalog number is on the outside of the bottle you have?
In recent years Tetenal was doing the manufacturing of HC-110 for Kodak Alaris. When Tetenal went into receivership, that was one of the products for which Kodak Alaris changed manufacturers.
FWIW, I've seen that sort of crystallization in Polymax T - Kodak's liquid paper developer. It doesn't seem to affect its performance.
 

Donald Qualls

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
12,294
Location
North Carolina
Format
Multi Format
Crystals in the bottle have been a standard for some developers for decades -- Rodinal, for instance. I'd normally expect they're sodium sulfite coming out of a saturated solution due to a temperature drop, and could/would return to solution if the bottle is heated with agitation. There are other species that could saturate and precipitate in some developers -- I saw a post recently in which hydroquinone had done so in a home-mixed solution.

The general rule has been to keep the crystals with the solution; they ensure it's still saturated. As long as the developer produces negatives you're happy with in the same process you're used to, I wouldn't worry about the crystals.
 

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
19,945
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm
The numb of your problem, as it appears to me, is that you have crystals on the bottom only a short time after purchase and rightly you are concerned, I assume, what might be causing this and more importantly what this might do to HC-110's development efficiency.

It might be helpful if you were to get the title of the thread changed. That way it might help respondents to address what I think is your specific concern. There is already a long thread on New HC-110 which attempts to address whether HC-110 is different and in what respects.

I'd try and do what has been suggested and then in a few weeks/months/years tell us if its efficiency has been affected. Once you dissolve or try to dissolve the crystals then you might want to do a " film leader test" each time before you use it. You may already know what a film leader test but I and others will be happy to explain it if required

pentaxuser
 

grat

Member
Joined
May 8, 2020
Messages
2,044
Location
Gainesville, FL
Format
Multi Format
As my grandpappy used to say, if you're not part of the solution... you're part of the precipitate.

What temperature have you been storing it at, out of curiosity?

There might be a scientific explanation, rather than a conspiratorial one.
 
OP
OP

kevin klein

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
194
Format
Large Format
grat said:
As my grandpappy used to say, if you're not part of the solution... you're part of the precipitate.

What temperature have you been storing it at, out of curiosity?

There might be a scientific explanation, rather than a conspiratorial one.
Click to expand...
It is at room temperature, the crystals do not redesolve after much adjitation. If it is still ok I will not worry about it.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
52,911
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
Can I ask again:
Which catalog number on the bottle?:
5010541 or 1058692 (UPC: 00041771058692) or ???
 

tokam

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
586
Location
Sydney, Aust
Format
Multi Format
Any precipitation in film processing solutions is a problem. I cannot finish a 1L bottle of Ilford Rapid fix before the concentrate begins to precipitate out. Filtering the diluted working solution helps but I would rather avoid solutions with floaty bits in them.

If the precipitation is in the HC-110 bottle then good luck trying to remove / filter them out. Once you have diluted the HC-110 to a working solution I wouldn't want to muck around for 10 mins trying to filter it before use.

(Did I mention that I hate having to 'spot' scanned negs in Photoshop. Even worse I discovered years ago that I am hopeless at spotting prints with brushes and dyes. Still have a fair collection of this stuff.)
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
52,911
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
The crystals in (somewhat older) Polymax-T don't seem to behave like precipitate - they seem to be more like developer concentrate that has slightly solidified and they liquefy when you dilute the concentrate to working strength (1 + 9).
From the descriptions, when it comes to consistency, the newest HC-110 sounds very similar to Polymax-T.
I've had experience with fixer that precipitates out - that behaves really different from the behavior of crystallized Polymax-T (or for that matter, really old HC-110).
 

john_s

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Messages
2,140
Location
Melbourne, A
Format
Medium Format
MattKing said:
The crystals in (somewhat older)....................I've had experience with fixer that precipitates out - that behaves really different from the behavior of crystallized Polymax-T (or for that matter, really old HC-110).
Click to expand...

I'm not sure of the terminology, but chemists would make the distinction between a precipitate that is a substance that is formed in a liquid and is solid and therefore becomes cloudy or falls to the bottom on the one hand, and on the other hand, something that can no longer stay in solution because (often) a drop in temperature and which usually can redissolve on warming or dilution.

If the crystals in OP's HC-110 do not dissolve, my guess is that the developer has altered characteristics. It might "work" but maybe not as before.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
52,911
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format

John Bragg

Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
1,039
Location
Cornwall, UK
Format
35mm
I for one wish that Kodak Alaris hadn't changed the formulation. I will be using Ilfotec HC once my HC-110 runs out. The beauty of the old formula was that it contained no water. Seems like the new stuff may just be a saturated solution in water and hence crystals form.
 

robskips

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
13
Location
usa
Format
Medium Format
I have crystals forming in my latest batch too. I go through bottles of HC110 pretty regularly and have never seen this.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
52,911
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
19,945
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm
So this new number indicates I think that Kodak has brought the manufacture back to the U.S. Is this right. I wonder who in the U.S. makes it now? Kodak itself? Given the problem or not as the case may be of crystals, was this a problem when Tetenal made it and can anyone remind me why Kodak wasn't able to specify the original product? I presume that there is something preventing a reversion to the original stuff otherwise "if it wasn't broke why fix it? "

pentaxuser
 

Donald Qualls

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
12,294
Location
North Carolina
Format
Multi Format
Might be due to the carcinogenic nature of a couple ingredients. California labeling requirements make it hard to sell some stuff there -- at a minimum, they can require short-warning redesign of packaging to carry the necessary warnings if they decide a long-running product needs the labels.
 

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
19,945
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm
Thanks I take it that no announcement was ever made by Kodak why there was a change to the viscosity and its cause. I am not sure why California labelling requirements relevance is to a change to the product which there clearly is, albeit it may simply be viscosity although we now have reports of crystals forming. I don't recall seeing any mention of crystals in the past when HC110 was more syrupy

pentaxuser
 

Donald Qualls

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
12,294
Location
North Carolina
Format
Multi Format
The change in formula may have been required for the new Kodak Alaris to sell the old formulation in California, where the old product might have been grandfathered.

Guessing, of course. I might also just boil down to plain old cost vs. selling price.

And no, I've used HC-110 as far back as 1975, and as recently as 2005, and never seen any crystals. The syrup was syrup.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
52,911
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
Tetenal nearly disappeared - they were barely saved from full bankruptcy.
It doesn't surprise me that Kodak Alaris elected to bring some of their manufacturing back to the USA.
Kodak Alaris themselves have no capacity for manufacturing chemicals.
Even Eastman Kodak has very little remaining capacity to manufacture chemicals - one of their big challenges comes from having to have others synthesize components for the films they make. As Eastman Kodak is short of capital, they can't afford to stockpile, and they often have to wait months for their orders to be filled.
HC-110 was made in a way that demanded a particular and demanding set of manufacturing techniques. It is those techniques that remain proprietary. Tetenal was set up to make HC-110 for Eastman Kodak's first, and then Kodak Alaris. It may be that no one else is able to do so without substantial capital investment - capital that Kodak Alaris doesn't have.
 

NB23

Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2009
Messages
4,307
Format
35mm

... except for ilfotec-HC?

Who produces Ilfotec-hc can produce hc-110. The truth was probably like all the rest of Kodak’s weird moves: saving money (while cheapening their products).
 

robskips

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
13
Location
usa
Format
Medium Format
I bet Carestream is making Kodak's chems if Kodak isn't making them directly.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
52,911
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
  • subsole
  • Deleted
  • Reason: wrong
Status
Not open for further replies.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…