Mystery 9x12 from a car boot

[Amy Gotto]

Amy, as your camera came out of a boot, let's just call it Boots...

Yes! Done. Mystery solved

 

[Amy Gotto]

Oscar Simon advertised his lenses in British Journal Photographic Almanacs, the adress is Optical Works, Dresden 21 (established 1876). A company L Trapp & Co 8-9 Chiswell Street London EC are wholesalers established 1865 and specialising in importing and exporting photographic goods. They were distributing Oscar Simon portrait lenses in 1910 and may well have place the advert.

Ian

Brilliant info, how wonderful to look at that camera and think its probably 100+ already. Even the little ruby spirit level is working. The back doesn't fit but never mind about that for now

 

[Ian Grant]

It appears that Oscar Simon moved from Dresden around 1926, we don't know where he worked before founding his company in 1876. He'd have to have gained experience somewhere in lens design and manufacture perhaps at Zeiss in nearby Jena. By 1926 he'd have been in his 70's or even 80's and the early to mid 1920's were were bad years for the German camera/photographic industry with companies struggling, some folding and others merging. 1926/7 saw the major merger of a number of companies to form Zeiss Ikon.

Around this period and into the early 1930's there were also some quite short lived new companies set up from the ashes of others and only around a year or two. The Edelweiss Deluxe is one that comes to mind quite a high end 9x12 camera, the shutter dated one on this Forum to 1925/6. Unfortunately unlike Deckel - Compur and Compound shutters - which have serial number the Alfred Gauthier shutters Ibso, Ibsor, Pronto, Prontor and Vario have no serial numbers. Also lenses can be dayed by their serial numbers but there's no data for smaller companies.

Does the leather(ette) covering of the back match the camera body ? Often backs are missing people used the cameras with Rollex or Rada roll film backs and they get misplaced. So it's possible it's not the original back.

Ian

 

[AgX]

I knew where you were going with it, but the Profundar deserved a profound joke as well.

I got that pun indeed.

By the way, who "gave names to all those animals"? Profundar... it never would have come to my mind. Well, the times of classic languages are gone.

We ones had a thread on lens names, I guess we should revive that.

 

[JPD]

I got that pun indeed.

By the way, who "gave names to all those animals"? Profundar... it never would have come to my mind. Well, the times of classic languages are gone.

We ones had a thread on lens names, I guess we should revive that.

In more general forums it's sometimes needed to use emoticons to point to a joke ( ) when pure text is too "dry" and it's suspected that too few members are in-the-know.

I have seen in a few old lens catalogues the "deep focus" of a lens as a selling point, and maybe that was used for the Profundar. Deep focus would depend on the aperture, but selling points like "brilliance" and "free from flare" was used for dialyts like the Dogmar, so some claims should be taken with a grain of salt. Tradenames with an aura of mystery can also add to their attractiveness. A lens with ghosting problems could have been called "Phantomar".

 

[Amy Gotto]

It appears that Oscar Simon moved from Dresden around 1926, we don't know where he worked before founding his company in 1876. He'd have to have gained experience somewhere in lens design and manufacture perhaps at Zeiss in nearby Jena. By 1926 he'd have been in his 70's or even 80's and the early to mid 1920's were were bad years for the German camera/photographic industry with companies struggling, some folding and others merging. 1926/7 saw the major merger of a number of companies to form Zeiss Ikon.

Around this period and into the early 1930's there were also some quite short lived new companies set up from the ashes of others and only around a year or two. The Edelweiss Deluxe is one that comes to mind quite a high end 9x12 camera, the shutter dated one on this Forum to 1925/6. Unfortunately unlike Deckel - Compur and Compound shutters - which have serial number the Alfred Gauthier shutters Ibso, Ibsor, Pronto, Prontor and Vario have no serial numbers. Also lenses can be dayed by their serial numbers but there's no data for smaller companies.

Does the leather(ette) covering of the back match the camera body ? Often backs are missing people used the cameras with Rollex or Rada roll film backs and they get misplaced. So it's possible it's not the original back.

Ian

The leatherette does seem to match. It looks like it should fit, but doesn't quite slot in anymore. Rada film backs sounds interesting. May have to have a google.

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Already in the old days a lot of camera's were made for different German mail order companies. Some camera lines were given names like Herlango, Porst, Feca, Perga, Welta, Balda.

 

[AgX]

Just because of that I found it strange to see a nameless camer (letting aside the chance that a sticker/emblem fell off). But I learned here that nameless cameras from that period exist indeed.

 

[JPD]

Already in the old days a lot of camera's were made for different German mail order companies. Some camera lines were given names like Herlango, Porst, Feca, Perga, Welta, Balda.

Welta and Balda certainly made their own cameras.

 

[Ian Grant]

Welta and Balda certainly made their own cameras.

My Rodenstock 9x12 camera was actually made for them by Welta, just very slight cosmetic differences. Here in the UK it was common for larger stores and chains to have cameras re-badged for them.

Ian

 

[JPD]

My Rodenstock 9x12 camera was actually made for them by Welta, just very slight cosmetic differences.

I have the same one, with the 3,5/150 Eurynar. A rebranded Welta Watson, a camera that despite the name never came with a "Detective Aplanat".

 

[lobitar]

With/without a name and a back it seems to be a nice find, though. Firstly the lens (brand) is quite rare. After fity years of looking I only own a couple: An 'Anastigmat' 7,2 , 148mm (obviously a copy of an early Zeiss Anastigmat 7.2) and an acromatic portrait lens 'Kronarette', 4,5/250mm. Secondly: the front stability of these cameras is always of paramount importance, many expensive cameras often had horrible stability of the lens bearing front (Ica, Zeiss and early Linhof comes to mind). But from the look of it your camera has a very well constructed locking levers for fastening to the rail. Only minus could be the 'single extension' with lever-focusing - that is if you plan to use it as all us user-collectors?

 

[Amy Gotto]

With/without a name and a back it seems to be a nice find, though. Firstly the lens (brand) is quite rare. After fity years of looking I only own a couple: An 'Anastigmat' 7,2 , 148mm (obviously a copy of an early Zeiss Anastigmat 7.2) and an acromatic portrait lens 'Kronarette', 4,5/250mm. Secondly: the front stability of these cameras is always of paramount importance, many expensive cameras often had horrible stability of the lens bearing front (Ica, Zeiss and early Linhof comes to mind). But from the look of it your camera has a very well constructed locking levers for fastening to the rail. Only minus could be the 'single extension' with lever-focusing - that is if you plan to use it as all us user-collectors?

That’s interesting - I didn’t think it was rare (but as I know so little about them I suppose I had no reason to think that!). I would like to use it - finding backs might be tricky. I picked up a GB Kershaw 630 from the same pile of stuff and it has made some lovely images - i definitely enjoy giving the old cameras a new lease of life.

 

[Kino]

Again, I'll post this 3D printed back. Good chance you have a "Normalplatzen" back like the Voigtlander and Kodak Recomar 33 model 9x12 cameras.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3449588

Be sure to look at the photos of builds posted there to see how it works.

This back is both a holder for a regular, double sided, 4x5 sheet film holder AND has an opening for a ground glass. You have to buy, install a ground glass and focus with that ground glass, but then you can use more common 4x5 holders and the larger variety of 4x5 film.

It would do until you could locate actual 9x12 film holders or plate holders with film inserts.

I had mine printed very cheaply online and it fits perfectly.

Here are some more 9x12 related printing projects: https://www.thingiverse.com/search?q=9x12+film&type=things&sort=relevant

Here's the service I used: https://www.thingiverse.com/apps/3d-print-with-treatstock

 

[Amy Gotto]

Again, I'll post this 3D printed back. Good chance you have a "Normalplatzen" back like the Voigtlander and Kodak Recomar 33 model 9x12 cameras.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3449588

Be sure to look at the photos of builds posted there to see how it works.

This back is both a holder for a regular, double sided, 4x5 sheet film holder AND has an opening for a ground glass. You have to buy, install a ground glass and focus with that ground glass, but then you can use more common 4x5 holders and the larger variety of 4x5 film.

It would do until you could locate actual 9x12 film holders or plate holders with film inserts.

I had mine printed very cheaply online and it fits perfectly.

Here are some more 9x12 related printing projects: https://www.thingiverse.com/search?q=9x12+film&type=things&sort=relevant

Here's the service I used: https://www.thingiverse.com/apps/3d-print-with-treatstock

Thank you for the links! So interesting that 3D printing is cropping up a lot within the vintage camera community.

 

[AgX]

Again, I'll post this 3D printed back. Good chance you have a "Normalplatzen" back like the Voigtlander and Kodak Recomar 33 model 9x12 cameras.

What is a "Normalplatzen" back?

Could it be you mean a "Normalfalz" back? Which means "standard rabbet".

 

[Kino]

What is a "Normalplatzen" back?

Could it be you mean a "Normalfalz" back? Which means "standard rabbet".

Probably; so much for my memory in another language...

 

[Bruce Bell]

Amy, I believe your camera is a Glunz model 3? plate camera. Glunz was most likely one of the founding partners of Glunz & Bülter which eventually became Orionwerke in the early 20's.
I recognized the similarity of your camera to one handed down to me from my grandfather. It is teak and brass Orionwerke and in need of some restoration work. I'd appreciate any guidance to a promising repair shop.

Bruce
grandfather.brucebell.com

 

[markjwyatt]

Amy, I believe your camera is a Glunz model 3? plate camera. Glunz was most likely one of the founding partners of Glunz & Bülter which eventually became Orionwerke in the early 20's.
I recognized the similarity of your camera to one handed down to me from my grandfather. It is teak and brass Orionwerke and in need of some restoration work. I'd appreciate any guidance to a promising repair shop.

Bruce
grandfather.brucebell.com

Bruce- I took a look at your grandfather's glass plates. All I can say is amazing. I am sold on glass plates! What a treasure.

Do you know anything about the emulsions he used? Were they orthochromatic, even panchromatic? I notice some dramatic skies. According to this article, panchromatic plates starting being produced as early as 1906.

"1906: The red sensitizing dye, pinacyanol, was discovered and began being used to produce panchromatic plates."

 

[BradS]

can somebody please translate, "car boot sale" from British English to US English?

is it roughly what we call "garage sale" ?

 

[Kino]

can somebody please translate, "car boot sale" from British English to US English?

is it roughly what we call "garage sale" ?

"Boot" implies car trunk, so I am guessing Flea Market...

 

[MattKing]

During normal summers, one of our local parks holds a boot (trunk) sale on Sundays during the summer.
Participants arrive, pay a small fee, get assigned a parking spot, and drive their vehicle in. They open the trunk, and use it (and frequently a folding table or two) to display the (usually) used items they have for sale.
I have participated once as a seller and sold some household and photographic items. Combined with a Craigslist ad directing people to the sale it can be quite effective.
The organizers use the rental income plus proceeds from sales of coffee/tee and cookies to support restoration and operation of a heritage building in the park.

 

[Bruce Bell]

Were they orthochromatic, even panchromatic?

Mark, some I think were panchromatic. the earliest I have dated is from Christmas 1906 and I know there are some that go into the 20's. I have only conserved and processed 4x5 and 5x7 plates so far, there are many more including some odd sizes and a large bundle of film. If there is interest in my project, I'd feel better with a new thread rather than hijacking Amy's.

Bruce