My repairman destroyed my Leica Lens

[NB23]

Ouch.

As a lens designer, I have a grasp of the stresses induced in the glass at the temperatures required to melt the uv adhesive used in the Summarex. The glasstypes expand at different rates, but the adhesive is preventing them from shifting with respect to each other. The result is a massive buildup of stress before the glass transition temperature of the cured adhesive is reach. The glass is pretty much guaranteed to fail just like you describe, even if they don’t receive thermal shock from carefully controlling temperature increase. Even thermal expansion coefficient matched flints and crowns undergo extreme stress.

Solvent soak for several weeks is the only way to safely separate uv adhesive bonded doublets. In all the time I’ve been working in optics and especially repairing lenses, I’ve never attempted separating uv adhesive bonded doublets with heat.

Summarex… I think I have the prescription for that lens. It’s theoretically possible to have a new doublet fabricated, though the cost is likely in the $700-$900 range.

This got ignored somehow. For 700-900$ I’d do it asap.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

I see a bit too many assumptions made in responses. We really don't know what kind of relationship between OP and repairman were/are in place for the mentioned 40 years, not even level & frequency of repairs that were done in that time span.

But I will say that if a repairman does not know what heating two glued glass element can do, he is just a "repairman" not worth doing business with, simply because he is willing to undertake a task without warning to customer, a task he is clearly not qualified to undertake.

Given what we've been told, had it been a working shutter just needing a CLA, that he had poked a hole in with a screwdriver and said "sorry, this happens" things would have been no different. When you take on a job, you better take responsibility for messing things up more, instead of righting them.

So to me, future business wise, this is a dump & look elsewhere, for ANY repairs.

 

[BMbikerider]

The threat of an early morning knock on the door by the Bailiff's can work wonders. Once an order has been signed by a judge in a county court there is very little that the person can do. Either he pays, or his goods and belongings can be seized and ultimately he could be made bankrupt which means all access to money is closed off, no credit, loans, if other words he is stuffed!

 

[Helge]

This got ignored somehow. For 700-900$ I’d do it asap.

We’re talking custom, very high precision glass here. No way that is going to be so relatively cheap. Someone would probably do a passable shot at it for that money.
But the whole point of the lens would be lost. It’s all about those last ten to one percent.

 

[Nodda Duma]

We’re talking custom, very high precision glass here. No way that is going to be so relatively cheap. Someone would probably do a passable shot at it for that money.
But the whole point of the lens would be lost. It’s all about those last ten to one percent.

That’s a valid estimate for the glasstypes used in the Summarit. It’s not magical, just optics. But it’s theoretical as the original drawings are buried in the archives of Leitz.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

This got ignored somehow. For 700-900$ I’d do it asap.

Putting $700-900 lens elements into a lens like this would have only made it that much more expensive to owner and adding value. In fact the lens would never again be called what it once was.

that aside from this rather silly suggestion as a possible fix. Probably why it “missed somehow”

 

[Helge]

Even taking a junker and getting the doublet from there would probably be a bad idea. The elements was very often custom made and carefully tweaked for that particular run and particular lens.

 

[Nodda Duma]

Putting $700-900 lens elements into a lens like this would have only made it that much more expensive to owner and adding value. In fact the lens would never again be called what it once was.

that aside from this rather silly suggestion as a possible fix. Probably why it “missed somehow”

Maybe silly from your perspective not understanding how it could be done, but from my perspective as a professional lens designer who has optics fabricated and fielded for a living — including life cycle support of fielded systems — it’s a viable solution if the original build was valuable enough and the information was available.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Maybe silly from your perspective not understanding how it could be done, but from my perspective as a professional lens designer who has optics fabricated and fielded for a living — including life cycle support of fielded systems — it’s a viable solution if the original build was valuable enough and the information was available.

I was not questioning your involvement nor knowledge in lens design, there would be no point to that anyways as in itself not relevant to my response

From the perspective of this thread it was what it was. We all have opinions and if I were in similar position and somebody suggested fabricated new elements, I would have felt exactly same way. All the rest remains a theoretical possibility, as you stated, and whether it could be done is not all that relevant, as chances pulling it off are slim to start with, expanse top to bottom likely much higher, result in the end not guaranteed to be worth time, effort, and expanse. And we were just engaged in what to do with the repairman who messed it up.

 

[BrianShaw]

I still can’t quite imagine how sad Karl must be. That is a sweet lens.

 

[Nodda Duma]

My point is that from my perspective it is an interesting problem that could be corrected, and is not unfeasible. Considering the value of this lens on the open market, that is a relatively economical approach that has been taken by others with other rare, expensive lenses… although I suppose scouring flea markets or waiting for a junker to salvage the lens out of are also viable albeit just as silly.

 

[BMbikerider]

We’re talking custom, very high precision glass here. No way that is going to be so relatively cheap. Someone would probably do a passable shot at it for that money.
But the whole point of the lens would be lost. It’s all about those last ten to one percent.

I have just done a check on line for similar lenses in perfect condition and they are around $3000 or about £2800 in real money

 

[Saganich]

I would say $500 worth of future repair/cla costs would be correct. The OP: It feels like the OP's expectations and assumptions were wrong regarding this lens. Fungus is the most serious issue. Clearly, the OP didn't have a good understanding that such a lens, no matter how beautiful on the outside was already destined to be a paperweight, sad and unfathomable as it seems. I've had repair people send lenses back to me saying, 'sorry it's fungus' and I had to pay $60 bucks for that. I'm sorry if you bought it that way thinking a quick cla would fix it up. Separating elements to clean fungus is a hail-mary play. You learned a valuable lesson. Your repair person: When you have enough experience there is a point when you learn to say no regardless of the pressure you are under by customers with time constraints, overly insistent, or with unreasonable expectations. IMO they should have not attempted to separate the elements or at least made it clear it was a hail-mary play. If the lens before it went for repair was worth $1000 (mint with fungus), I would split the difference.

 

[Don_ih]

The issue is not with the owner of the lens. He possibly never knew the fungus was in the cement between the elements. Most fungus is on the surface and taking the lens apart to clean it off is pretty straightforward. The repair person, however, plainly had something he was supposed to fix break while in his care. It's bad practice to not take responsibility.

 

[pentaxuser]

We haven't heard from the OP for about 3 pages. I wonder what he has decided and/or done about his problem?

pentaxuser

 

[Don_ih]

We haven't heard from the OP for about 3 pages. I wonder what he has decided and/or done about his problem?

Hopefully, he's not in custody awaiting arraignment.

 

[Karl K]

Hopefully, he's not in custody awaiting arraignment.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful comments and suggestions.
Yes, my Summarex was easily worth between $3000 and $4000, if the fungus could have been successfully removed.
This Summarex is the first version, complete with original caps and shade, and is the lens pictured in one of Jim Lager's Illustrated Leica Lens Guides.
I had no idea that attempting to remove the fungus was so dangerous.
The worst outcome that I anticipated was the failure to remove the fungus due to the internal glass having been permanently etched.
I could have lived with the etching because the lens was still useable.
But, my repairman did not disclose the possibility of total lens destruction, prior to accepting this job.
Maybe I would have taken the risk anyway....I don't know.
In the end, the 40-year relationship with my repairman is worth more to me than this monetary loss.
I've learned an expensive lesson with respect to future repairs of rare vintage lenses.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful comments and suggestions.
Yes, my Summarex was easily worth between $3000 and $4000, if the fungus could have been successfully removed.
This Summarex is the first version, complete with original caps and shade, and is the lens pictured in one of Jim Lager's Illustrated Leica Lens Guides.
I had no idea that attempting to remove the fungus was so dangerous.
The worst outcome that I anticipated was the failure to remove the fungus due to the internal glass having been permanently etched.
I could have lived with the etching because the lens was still useable.
But, my repairman did not disclose the possibility of total lens destruction, prior to accepting this job.
Maybe I would have taken the risk anyway....I don't know.
In the end, the 40-year relationship with my repairman is worth more to me than this monetary loss.
I've learned an expensive lesson with respect to future repairs of rare vintage lenses.

I think that is wise Karl. Also probably he will be inclined to give a good price on future jobs .

Finding trustworthy and dependable repairmen is hard. I assume he is both trustworthy and dependable given your 40 history with him so I would take the bullet and move on.



Sure, it sucks to lose the lens but I'm sure it will worth on the future. I bet he will be extra careful on the future. So, I think sure, its is worth it.




Marcelo.

 

[Helge]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful comments and suggestions.
Yes, my Summarex was easily worth between $3000 and $4000, if the fungus could have been successfully removed.
This Summarex is the first version, complete with original caps and shade, and is the lens pictured in one of Jim Lager's Illustrated Leica Lens Guides.
I had no idea that attempting to remove the fungus was so dangerous.
The worst outcome that I anticipated was the failure to remove the fungus due to the internal glass having been permanently etched.
I could have lived with the etching because the lens was still useable.
But, my repairman did not disclose the possibility of total lens destruction, prior to accepting this job.
Maybe I would have taken the risk anyway....I don't know.
In the end, the 40-year relationship with my repairman is worth more to me than this monetary loss.
I've learned an expensive lesson with respect to future repairs of rare vintage lenses.

I say tell him your thoughts on this. More or less what you wrote here.
Of course be polite and perhaps put a bit more emphasis in the “I appreciate your work and our relationship” part.

That will clear the air, while at the same time giving him some useful feedback.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The threat of an early morning knock on the door by the Bailiff's can work wonders. Once an order has been signed by a judge in a county court there is very little that the person can do. Either he pays, or his goods and belongings can be seized and ultimately he could be made bankrupt which means all access to money is closed off, no credit, loans, if other words he is stuffed!

It is not that simple. There is this thing called due process. Yes one can sue and have papers served. Then one has to convince the judge to prevail in court. Then if a judgment is won, it must be served. Once served does not mean that one can collect. If necessary go back to step one to start the collection process ...

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

I say tell him your thoughts on this. More or less what you wrote here.
Of course be polite and perhaps put a by more emphasis in the “I appreciate your work and our relationship” part.

That will clear the air, while at the same time given him some useful feedback.

Agree. That would make things clear on both sides. Can't put enough emphasis on the polite part. Thaty would make for a healthy relationship.


Regards.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful comments and suggestions.
Yes, my Summarex was easily worth between $3000 and $4000, if the fungus could have been successfully removed.
This Summarex is the first version, complete with original caps and shade, and is the lens pictured in one of Jim Lager's Illustrated Leica Lens Guides.
I had no idea that attempting to remove the fungus was so dangerous.
The worst outcome that I anticipated was the failure to remove the fungus due to the internal glass having been permanently etched.
I could have lived with the etching because the lens was still useable.
But, my repairman did not disclose the possibility of total lens destruction, prior to accepting this job.
Maybe I would have taken the risk anyway....I don't know.
In the end, the 40-year relationship with my repairman is worth more to me than this monetary loss.
I've learned an expensive lesson with respect to future repairs of rare vintage lenses.

If you can truly handle it this way, kudos to you. If I read it right though, next job will not be a simple take-it-and-fix-it "as best you can".

 

[faberryman]

And the fate of the other five lenses sent in for CLAs?

 

[Sirius Glass]

So is he still your repair man? Interested readers want to know.

 

[Helios 1984]

Any pictures of the element? Sheer curiosity.