My repairman destroyed my Leica Lens

grat · Jan 1, 2022

The last time something like this came up, I argued that this is part of the cost of doing business-- You can't just take something apart and put it back together and expect it to go perfectly every time. Look up "entropy".

Unfortunately, I (and the others sharing my viewpoint) got attacked by the legal eagles, especially some rather unforgiving European posters here.

But if the lens had fungus bad enough that it was in between two cemented elements, then I can't believe that the surface of those two elements wasn't also damaged-- and was probably the reason the lens shattered, due to the uneven heating. It's possible he should have used a different technique-- I'm not an expert in glass, particularly optics. But the only way the fungus could get in there is by either eating the cement, or the glass, or the original cementing was done badly.

Regardless, that lens was, at best, [Near Mint+++].

Move on, decide whether it's worth a 40 year friendship (Hint: It isn't. The number of people I can still call friend after 30 years is very small, and over 40, nonexistant), and look for a suitable donor lens.

Helge · Jan 1, 2022

momus said:
I doubt the repair person did anything wrong, sometimes this happens w/ old glass simply because it's old. We don't know that the repair person destroyed anything, they may have been going about the job just as expected. But again, w/ old stuff, it's impossible to predict everything that might happen during a repair.

Separating cemented elements is never risk free.
The repairman should at least have mentioned the risk.

removedacct1 · Jan 1, 2022

Its a bad idea to value stuff more than the people in your life.

Helge · Jan 1, 2022

paulbarden said:
Its a bad idea to value stuff more than the people in your life.

That depends on whether they are really in your life. The OP seems merely have a very good and long acquaintance in the repairman. Length of a relationship has very little to do with quality of relationship.
You can see a person daily for years and years and not know them the slightest bit.
And there are of course infinite grades up from that to a full blow BFF.

btaylor · Jan 1, 2022

I think one big question I have is: if he had told you that the lens elements could be damaged in trying to separate the cemented doublet, would you have said “go ahead- I’ll take the risk.” If you would have then I think you should move on. Also, could the elements have been irreparable due to fungus etching anyway? I think the insurance claim is out of the question. My business insurance deductible is $1000 which is pretty standard. With the fungus in the lens it would have a value of what, $1500 to $2000? As a business it is not worth making the claim- you’re out the thousand and either having your rates increase or just get “non renewed” at the end of the year.
I hate these situations. That’s one reason my shop won’t work on stuff over 20 years old- you can’t get parts if something goes wrong and you can end up right where Karl and his repair guy are. I gotta hand it to these old guys that will work on this old “classic” gear with no replacement parts available for a lousy $100-200.
If it were me I would be on the lookout for a junker with the undamaged elements needed and keep my 40 year relationship intact. I feel for you, but it’s just one of those curve balls you get once in awhile. IMHO

Sirius Glass · Jan 1, 2022

Well now the OP has parts for the next fungus infected lens he get.

Helge · Jan 1, 2022

btaylor said:
I think one big question I have is: if he had told you that the lens elements could be damaged in trying to separate the cemented doublet, would you have said “go ahead- I’ll take the risk.” If you would have then I think you should move on. Also, could the elements have been irreparable due to fungus etching anyway? I think the insurance claim is out of the question. My business insurance deductible is $1000 which is pretty standard. With the fungus in the lens it would have a value of what, $1500 to $2000? As a business it is not worth making the claim- you’re out the thousand and either having your rates increase or just get “non renewed” at the end of the year.
I hate these situations. That’s one reason my shop won’t work on stuff over 20 years old- you can’t get parts if something goes wrong and you can end up right where Karl and his repair guy are. I gotta hand it to these old guys that will work on this old “classic” gear with no replacement parts available for a lousy $100-200.
If it were me I would be on the lookout for a junker with the undamaged elements needed and keep my 40 year relationship intact. I feel for you, but it’s just one of those curve balls you get once in awhile. IMHO

Good advice. Whether this will eat away at you probably depends on whether you’d have said go ahead or not given the warning.

Moose22 · Jan 1, 2022

Ian Grant said:
I have to agree, a lens with Fungus is a long way from being mint optically,, although maybe cosmetically at first glance.

The overuse of "mint" bothers me so much. Especially when you see "mint" in an ebay ad and then it has scratches and fungus... ugh.

There's no such thing as just cosmetically mint. Mint is -- mint. It either is completely perfect, or it is not mint. The term means a coin that has never been touched by human hands, never circulated, with zero flaws. Literally, straight out of the mint.

For anything other than coins, that means it should be absolutely perfect, like new, in all ways. Anything that has fungus is decidedly not mint.

Alas, I have no good advice for the OP other than to suck it up. This is awful, and you can be very disappointed, but attempting to clean fungus in that location is tough. It's a parts lens now. Time to find a junker with good glass and hope your lifelong acquaintance can make them into one great lens.

Helge · Jan 1, 2022

Moose22 said:
The overuse of "mint" bothers me so much. Especially when you see "mint" in an ebay ad and then it has scratches and fungus... ugh.

There's no such thing as just cosmetically mint. Mint is -- mint. It either is completely perfect, or it is not mint. The term means a coin that has never been touched by human hands, never circulated, with zero flaws. Literally, straight out of the mint.

For anything other than coins, that means it should be absolutely perfect, like new, in all ways. Anything that has fungus is decidedly not mint.

^ Plus several million. ^

Next step down from mint is perfect condition. Which means extremely, exceptionally, hysterically good condition. That is at the very most one small mark of paint damage in a corner or, a single hairline scratch in an invisible place.
And still impeccable functionality.

Below that always involves careful and thorough description. And lots of pictures.

MattKing · Jan 2, 2022

I don't know whether I'm lumped in with the legal eagle set, but from that perspective I would say that the legality of the situation will depend on what the rules are in your jurisdiction, as well as what the terms are - both stated and implied - of your transaction.
If I had a 40 year relationship with a repair technician, I would probably be working on both trust and an expectation that the technician isn't perfect. And it would be hard to conclude that over 40 years the technician hadn't warned me in the past about these sorts of dangers.
See if you can work out a deal about how it might be fixed. But don't be just silent about it.

otto.f · Jan 2, 2022

If you know this repairman already 40 years, it might be that he needs retirement because he’s getting a bit careless or thinks that his competence is higher after all these years than it actually still is. You are in doubt if you want to lose him as a repairman, but I certainly would find a fresh young dog that has to build up a reputation yet and certainly would have warned you in advance.

AgX · Jan 2, 2022

grat said:
Unfortunately, I (and the others sharing my viewpoint) got attacked by the legal eagles, especially some rather unforgiving European posters here.

Be fair.
There only was one comment from Europe advising claiming a cost refund. And that was not even me...
And there was not any attack by anyone.

BradS · Jan 2, 2022

I would get rid of whatever is left of the lens ASAP. Get rid of it immediately! It will forever be a reminder of bad feelings. Dump it, quit trying to assign blame, let it go. move on.

Ray Hunter · Jan 2, 2022

BradS said:
Another way to think about it...if the lens had so much fungus in it that you and he thought it acceptable to separate elements...the lens wasn't really worth much in the first place.
To me, no lens is worth loosing a friend over.
Let it go. Forgive and move on with your life.
Maybe, buy a different lens.
It's just stuff....

I agree that this attitude should be an overriding principle. That being said, if you have something else that you feel confident your repairman can handle, maybe you could negotiate a "house credit" going forward. That way you can maintain your relationship and still realize some compensation for the accidental loss of a lens.

Helge · Jan 2, 2022

Karl K said:
Yes, I think if he agreed to swap the glass at no charge, I'd be OK with that.
Thanks for the suggestion.

You can’t just “swap glass” with lenses of this class.

Ray Hunter · Jan 2, 2022

BradS said:
I would get rid of whatever is left of the lens ASAP. Get rid of it immediately! It will forever be a reminder of bad feelings. Dump it, quit trying to assign blame, let it go. move on.

I agree with this, too. Especially the "let it go" advice. It will, indeed, forever be a reminder of bad and negative feelings.

Arthurwg · Jan 2, 2022

Moose22 said:
The overuse of "mint" bothers me so much. Especially when you see "mint" in an ebay ad and then it has scratches and fungus... ugh.

There's no such thing as just cosmetically mint. Mint is -- mint. It either is completely perfect, or it is not mint. The term means a coin that has never been touched by human hands, never circulated, with zero flaws. Literally, straight out of the mint.

For anything other than coins, that means it should be absolutely perfect, like new, in all ways. Anything that has fungus is decidedly not mint.

Alas, I have no good advice for the OP other than to suck it up. This is awful, and you can be very disappointed, but attempting to clean fungus in that location is tough. It's a parts lens now. Time to find a junker with good glass and hope your lifelong acquaintance can make them into one great lens.

So true. Most things on Ebay that claim to be MINT simply are not. Same for MINT- and Near Mint. Japanese sellers constantly make this claim. In my book, Mint means "as new."

Vaughn · Jan 2, 2022

The lens was not close to mint.
The OP has worked with the repair fellow for 40 years.

My guess is that the repair person assumed the OP knew the risks....possibly a similar warning might have been given several times over the past 40 years on different repairs.

Keep it as a paper weight. Why try to forget lessons learned?

Sirius Glass · Jan 2, 2022

otto.f said:
If you know this repairman already 40 years, it might be that he needs retirement because he’s getting a bit careless or thinks that his competence is higher after all these years than it actually still is. You are in doubt if you want to lose him as a repairman, but I certainly would find a fresh young dog that has to build up a reputation yet and certainly would have warned you in advance.

So he made one mistake in his life. Do you live mistake free? I on the the other hand only made one mistake in my life. I thought that I had been wrong about something and it turned out that I had bee right all the time.

Give the man some slack.

Don_ih · Jan 2, 2022

If someone wants to be paid when they service or repair things, he or she should take responsibility for any mishap or mistake that occurs that damages the item while being serviced or repaired. In this case, he could just offer free repairs or discounted repairs to make up for loss. It's not the sort of thing you would expect to outright replace, but you lost its functionality due to his action. It's not a matter of law, it's a matter of not screwing someone over.

In the meantime, if the lens is back together, try using it. The split elements might add something you can't get otherwise. If it's cool, sell it as an "art" portrait lens.

Alex Benjamin · Jan 2, 2022

Arthurwg said:
So true. Most things on Ebay that claim to be MINT simply are not. Same for MINT- and Near Mint. Japanese sellers constantly make this claim. In my book, Mint means "as new."

Agreed. It's either mint or it ain't.

"Near mint" is like being "a little bit pregnant".

removedacct1 · Jan 2, 2022

Karl K said:
I don't want to lose him forever as a repairman due to this mistake, but I feel that he should somehow make it right.
In your opinion, what should we do?

I think that if you feel you are due some compensation for the damage to the lens, then talk to him and state what it is you think he should do for you.

Sirius Glass · Jan 2, 2022

Moose22 said:
The overuse of "mint" bothers me so much. Especially when you see "mint" in an ebay ad and then it has scratches and fungus... ugh.

There's no such thing as just cosmetically mint. Mint is -- mint. It either is completely perfect, or it is not mint. The term means a coin that has never been touched by human hands, never circulated, with zero flaws. Literally, straight out of the mint.

For anything other than coins, that means it should be absolutely perfect, like new, in all ways. Anything that has fungus is decidedly not mint.

Alas, I have no good advice for the OP other than to suck it up. This is awful, and you can be very disappointed, but attempting to clean fungus in that location is tough. It's a parts lens now. Time to find a junker with good glass and hope your lifelong acquaintance can make them into one great lens.

I too am bothered by the overuse of "mint". The only mint I will use is in Mint Julip around the Kentucky Derby.

logan2z · Jan 2, 2022

Arthurwg said:
So true. Most things on Ebay that claim to be MINT simply are not. Same for MINT- and Near Mint. Japanese sellers constantly make this claim. In my book, Mint means "as new."

Right. I recently looked at an ad for a Pentax film camera on eBay from a US seller and it described the camera as 'Mint'. The photos clearly showed areas of wear on the camera. I sent the seller a message politely telling him that the camera did not appear mint in the photos. He responded saying that 'well, considering the age of the camera...', to which I again (politely) replied 'Mint is an absolute term, and the age of the camera has no bearing on it'. Later that day I noticed that the seller amended his ad to say 'Excellent condition' instead, which was more accurate. At least he took the feedback as constructive and acted on it.

Sirius Glass · Jan 2, 2022

I know what to do. Reassemble the lens the best you can. Post it on eBay as "Rare. Hard to find. Highly desirable. Split image lens."

My repairman destroyed my Leica Lens

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