My repairman destroyed my Leica Lens

Karl K · Jan 1, 2022

I gave my repairman, whom I've known for about 40 years, several Leica lenses for CLA's.
One of the lenses was a really mint condition Summarex 85mm f/1.5 that had some internal fungus.
In attempting to separate two lens elements to remove the fungus, he heated the glass and two elements completely cracked in half.
He did not warn me in advance that there was a possibility that this might happen.
My mint Summarex is now worthless.
He apologized, and of course did not charge me for his time and effort.
I don't want to lose him forever as a repairman due to this mistake, but I feel that he should somehow make it right.
In your opinion, what should we do?

Pieter12 · Jan 1, 2022

When he took in the lenses, was there some sort of receipt? That usually has his legal liability spelled out on it.

Sirius Glass · Jan 1, 2022

I am so sorry for what happened, Separating lenses is always a problem. I have avoided lenses with fungus because I did not want to get involved with remediating the problem. Again, I am sorry that this happened to your lens.

Deleted member 88956 · Jan 1, 2022

Karl K said:
I gave my repairman, whom I've known for about 40 years, several Leica lenses for CLA's.
One of the lenses was a really mint condition Summarex 85mm f/1.5 that had some internal fungus.
In attempting to separate two lens elements to remove the fungus, he heated the glass and two elements completely cracked in half.
He did not warn me in advance that there was a possibility that this might happen.
My mint Summarex is now worthless.
He apologized, and of course did not charge me for his time and effort.
I don't want to lose him forever as a repairman due to this mistake, but I feel that he should somehow make it right.
In your opinion, what should we do?

in a normal world we used to know he would make it right without a hint. I don’t think we live a normal world anymore.

He damaged it and if he was not sure of what he was trying to do he should have at least ask you beforehand. It is all his fault. In reality he should have either said “I can try but it could become just an expensive paper weight” or “sorry, no can do”.

BrianShaw · Jan 1, 2022

Sad story. Accidents happen, though. Consider exploring possibilities of insurance claim… his or yours. But, honestly, it would go a lot smoother with a more realistic appraisal of condition; mint does not include fungus. If not that, I’d bite the bullet and write off the lens. Forgive but don’t forget.

BradS · Jan 1, 2022

Another way to think about it...if the lens had so much fungus in it that you and he thought it acceptable to separate elements...the lens wasn't really worth much in the first place.
To me, no lens is worth loosing a friend over.
Let it go. Forgive and move on with your life.
Maybe, buy a different lens.
It's just stuff....

Sirius Glass · Jan 1, 2022

BradS said:
Another way to think about it...if the lens had so much fungus in it that you and he thought it acceptable to separate elements...the lens wasn't really worth much in the first place.
To me, no lens is worth loosing a friend over.
Let it go. Forgive and move on with your life.
Maybe, buy a different lens.
It's just stuff....

I agree. A mint lens does not have fungus. As I posted above, I would not buy a lens with fungus. Even if the optics got separated the fungus would have eaten into the surface rendering the optical surface marred and useless. Move on.

Karl K · Jan 1, 2022

My Summarex was truly a mint example, albeit with slight fungus or mildew.
I wanted it to be cleaned and perfectly clear, or clear as much as possible.
Of course, it was usable as it was, but it bothered me knowing that it could be "perfect."
Maybe I was reaching too far.
We've been doing business seamlessly together for about 40 years, but he didn't offer me any compensation...just "I'm sorry that this happened, but I tried my best to clean it."
If he had warned me that severe and permanent damage was possible, I might have thought twice about having it serviced.
As it stands, we haven't spoken at all for several months and it's bothering me because I know he's sorry for what happened, but he's leaving me holding the ball.

Deleted member 88956 · Jan 1, 2022

Karl K said:
My Summarex was truly a mint example, albeit with slight fungus or mildew.
I wanted it to be cleaned and perfectly clear, or clear as much as possible.
Of course, it was usable as it was, but it bothered me knowing that it could be "perfect."
Maybe I was reaching too far.
We've been doing business seamlessly together for about 40 years, but he didn't offer me any compensation...just "I'm sorry that this happened, but I tried my best to clean it."
If he had warned me that severe and permanent damage was possible, I might have thought twice about having it serviced.
As it stands, we haven't spoken at all for several months and it's bothering me because I know he's sorry for what happened, but he's leaving me holding the ball.

40 years is a lot to drop yet he dropped the ball on this. You have a tough one to swallow. Months not speaking and I assume no new attempt to mend things has taken place? From his end that is.

Arthurwg · Jan 1, 2022

BradS said:
Another way to think about it...if the lens had so much fungus in it that you and he thought it acceptable to separate elements...the lens wasn't really worth much in the first place.
To me, no lens is worth loosing a friend over.
Let it go. Forgive and move on with your life.
Maybe, buy a different lens.
It's just stuff....

Good point. A lens with fungus is far from MINT.

AnselMortensen · Jan 1, 2022

Bummer.
Maybe a beat-up example with good glass will show up at a good price, and you can work out a happy conclusion.
This is a case where "perfect" is the enemy of "good enough".
Sometimes bad stuff like that happens...if he's been a good, reliable resource for 40 years, I'd have a hard time ending that working relationship.

Karl K · Jan 1, 2022

AnselMortensen said:
Bummer.
Maybe a beat-up example with good glass will show up at a good price, and you can work out a happy conclusion.
This is a case where "perfect" is the enemy of "good enough".
Sometimes bad stuff like that happens...if he's been a good, reliable resource for 40 years, I'd have a hard time ending that working relationship.

Yes, I think if he agreed to swap the glass at no charge, I'd be OK with that.
Thanks for the suggestion.

DonW · Jan 1, 2022

Unfortunately in our culture we expect some form of retribution for anything that falls upon us at the hands of someone else.

Was this chap negligent in his work? Probably not. Should he have spelled out the risks? Probably if he had problems with this procedure in the past. If he had done it many times over his decades of professional work and had no issues he maybe felt it unnecessary.

Should you have researched the possible problems associated with various methods of fungus/mildew remediation? On a high value item I would say yes. That way you would have known the risks and be informed enough to ask the right questions.

So in the end it could be argued both sides may have been somewhat negligent.

Obviously this is bothering you. Maybe a coffee with this person so you can articulate your feelings and see where it goes. If it has been a great friendship for 40 years it may be worth more to you in the end to just chalk it up to "dodo happens".

Two reasonable people should be able to sort this out.

AgX · Jan 1, 2022

I am surprised that the comments are so mild and rather based on social issues. I expect at a german forum the discussion would only be about legal matters and the value of that lens.

So much about cultural differences. (But I remember seller bashing threads here too.)

BrianShaw · Jan 1, 2022

AgX said:
I am surprised that the comments are so mild and rather based on social issues. I expect at a german forum the discussion would only be about legal matters and the value of that lens.

So much about cultural differences. (But I remember seller bashing threads here too.)

What legal matters would Germans be focused on? As DonW pointed out, a basic tenet of US law requires negligence. The value of the lens is rather immaterial since it was a valued an useful lens to Karl. Sadly, it might just be a list cause.

Or was that just somewhat of a societal comment on the difference between Germans and the rest of the world? I’m not often sure who I’d rather deal with

ic-racer · Jan 1, 2022

Mint? a mint lens cant have fungus. lenses with fungus are frequently damaged beyond repair ( unless the 'fungus' was just dirt)
reads like he gave it a galliant effort, but in the end it is a parts lens.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 1, 2022

Pieter12 said:
When he took in the lenses, was there some sort of receipt? That usually has his legal liability spelled out on it.

He must get it repaired by Zeiss and You should pick up half of that bill.

Nodda Duma · Jan 1, 2022

Ouch.

As a lens designer, I have a grasp of the stresses induced in the glass at the temperatures required to melt the uv adhesive used in the Summarex. The glasstypes expand at different rates, but the adhesive is preventing them from shifting with respect to each other. The result is a massive buildup of stress before the glass transition temperature of the cured adhesive is reach. The glass is pretty much guaranteed to fail just like you describe, even if they don’t receive thermal shock from carefully controlling temperature increase. Even thermal expansion coefficient matched flints and crowns undergo extreme stress.

Solvent soak for several weeks is the only way to safely separate uv adhesive bonded doublets. In all the time I’ve been working in optics and especially repairing lenses, I’ve never attempted separating uv adhesive bonded doublets with heat.

Summarex… I think I have the prescription for that lens. It’s theoretically possible to have a new doublet fabricated, though the cost is likely in the $700-$900 range.

BMbikerider · Jan 1, 2022

Karl K said:
I gave my repairman, whom I've known for about 40 years, several Leica lenses for CLA's.
One of the lenses was a really mint condition Summarex 85mm f/1.5 that had some internal fungus.
In attempting to separate two lens elements to remove the fungus, he heated the glass and two elements completely cracked in half.
He did not warn me in advance that there was a possibility that this might happen.
My mint Summarex is now worthless.
He apologized, and of course did not charge me for his time and effort.
I don't want to lose him forever as a repairman due to this mistake, but I feel that he should somehow make it right.
In your opinion, what should we do?

If he is a professional with integrity and a regular business, then he should have a 3rd part liability and he should be able to claim on this for an accident during the time the item was with him for restoration.

Sirius Glass · Jan 1, 2022

AgX said:
I am surprised that the comments are so mild and rather based on social issues. I expect at a german forum the discussion would only be about legal matters and the value of that lens.

So much about cultural differences. (But I remember seller bashing threads here too.)

In the US the thread would go down that rabbit hole, however the lens was a sow's ear to begin with. If I brought in a classic Mercedes Benz from the 1920's covered with rust, the upholstery rotten out and rodent eaten, the transmission full of rust and corrosion, crack and broken windows, and asked you for fix the horn,and then when you went to remove the rubber bulb from the horn the rubber crumbled into dust, should you be responsible for replacing that car with a museum quality version of the original? The lens had fungus. The original purchase cost was lower because the lens had a defect that could only get worse and much worse. The problem was in the assumption that a lens with fungus could be made pristine in every situation.

Ian Grant · Jan 1, 2022

ic-racer said:
Mint? a mint lens cant have fungus. lenses with fungus are frequently damaged beyond repair ( unless the 'fungus' was just dirt)
reads like he gave it a galliant effort, but in the end it is a parts lens.

I have to agree, a lens with Fungus is a long way from being mint optically,, although maybe cosmetically at first glance.

Here in the UK the company I was going to use some years ago to have a Summar repolished and coated did warn that there could sometimes be (rare) issues like this with the OP's lens, it was a generic statement but related more to post Balsam Cement lenses.

Ian

DonW · Jan 1, 2022

BMbikerider said:
If he is a professional with integrity and a regular business, then he should have a 3rd part liability and he should be able to claim on this for an accident during the time the item was with him for restoration.

And then his insurer either jacks ups his rates through the roof or cuts him off. Either way he is out of business. Modern insurance companies are the biggest cons known to mankind. In this case I think he would be denied anyway. Sorry for the rant and please don't let this derail the thread.

Helge · Jan 1, 2022

He should have known that separating elements is very risky. He should have asked you.
Tell him that and wait for his reaction.
Otherwise find someone else. He’s is obviously not family or a close friend.

gone · Jan 1, 2022

I doubt the repair person did anything wrong, sometimes this happens w/ old glass simply because it's old. We don't know that the repair person destroyed anything, they may have been going about the job just as expected. But again, w/ old stuff, it's impossible to predict everything that might happen during a repair.

Pieter12 · Jan 1, 2022

momus said:
I doubt the repair person did anything wrong, sometimes this happens w/ old glass simply because it's old. We don't know that the repair person destroyed anything, they may have been going about the job just as expected. But again, w/ old stuff, it's impossible to predict everything that might happen during a repair.

But he should have known enough to warn the customer that something like that might happen.

My repairman destroyed my Leica Lens

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