My rant on shooting box speed. Am I out to lunch?

[Autonerd]

To the OP: why do you feel such a great need to dictate to strangers on the internet how to make their art? That seems like the ultimate in futility to me.

I don't. I do feel a great need to do what I can, where I can, to provide education in the face of much, much bad information and the echo chamber that is the Internet. How else do you explain the notion that the AE-1 is one of the greatest "beginner cameras"?

Seriously, I do think that with the high cost and possible frustration levels, it's good if those of us who started in the era of good Photo 101 courses can pass that knowledge on to younger folks. The more people into film, and the more people who have success with film, the better for all of us.

But I could also just have narcissistic tendencies.

 

[Autonerd]

I am delighted that others have already addressed your use of the words, "right" and "wrong" (mostly "wrong"), so I don't have to. Those words are much harder to define than under and over exposure, and tend to convey a moral judgement, so should probably be avoided.

A point I have taken to heart.

 

[chuckroast]

Basically, you have to have all the exposures on a roll needing the same development, unlike sheet film. You can't have the start of the roll needing N+1 and the end of the roll needing N-2 for example.

Ah, got it. With conventional Zone N+- processing, that is certainly the case.

However for long, low agitation development that I typically use in such circumstances, the exposures on a single roll can vary quite a bit and you still get good results.

The long development time lets the shadows develop to completion pretty much independent of the scene SBR. So, you have to make sure you expose properly for the shadows. The limited agitation means that the highlights develop quickly initially and then stop developing, so you have to make sure your highlights are placed properly. This kind of development tends to expand mid tone contrast AND push highlights up somewhat, so I tend to place highlights lower than I would with conventional development - closer to Zone VI than VII. IOW you are not using N+- development.

You are counting on long development with very little agitation to hold things in place.

The extreme example of this is that - if you do the aforementioned exposure/placement properly - you can actually develop different films at the same time in the same long development session with same number of agitations and total time.

HOWEVER, none of this is free. These techniques - (semi)stand and EMA come at a price: They are VERY fiddly and it's easy to screw up the development and get streaking and other negative nasties. The single most important thing is to use absolutely minimal support for the film - stainless reels for rolls, simple clips for sheets - AND you have to get it off the bottom of the development tank.

So, it's quite doable to have multiple SBRs on a single roll, but it requires precision in exposure, placement, and development technique. It took me some years to get it right. I've shared my notes on the matter here a number of times if you want all the ugly details.

 

[dcy]

I also agree. If someone asks me how I like to do something, or for specific advice, I'm happy to share what works for me. But I don't have the time to convince people on the Internet that they're wrong--especially when they seem happy with their methods and results.

 

[Bill Burk]

Incident meter the shadows (facing the camera) and shoot at the box speed.

Wait! No. When you incident meter the shadows, the meter is supposed to be uprated. This is a BTZS (Beyond the Zone System - Davis) practice.

 

[MattKing]

How else do you explain the notion that the AE-1 is one of the greatest "beginner cameras"?

As someone who sold AE-1s when they revolutionized the industry, I can assure you that for many, many people the notion was completely true!
They, of course, were coming to 35mm SLR photography and slide film from the Instamatics and point and shoot cameras they used before.

 

[chuckroast]

As someone who sold AE-1s when they revolutionized the industry, I can assure you that for many, many people the notion was completely true!
They, of course, were coming to 35mm SLR photography and slide film from the Instamatics and point and shoot cameras they used before.

Wait. What? Everyone knows that you can only get good pictures with a Leica or Hasselblad. Quit spreading fake nooze. ;P

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Wrong! As a former photography teacher, the K1000 is THE best beginner camera!

 

[chuckroast]

Wrong! As a former photography teacher, the K1000 is THE best beginner camera!

Yeah, but that's only true In Canada.

On a slightly more serious note, the camera that created the industry in the first place was the Leica IIIf. I still own one made in the 1950s, and apart from routine servicing and adjustment, it has been flawless. It's a marvel of simplicity and engineering. The IIIf literally created the 35mm still photography category as a widely accepted thing.

 

[cliveh]

Yeah, but that's only true In Canada.

On a slightly more serious note, the camera that created the industry in the first place was the Leica IIIf. I still own one made in the 1950s, and apart from routine servicing and adjustment, it has been flawless. It's a marvel of simplicity and engineering. The IIIf literally created the 35mm still photography category as a widely accepted thing.

No it's not. I spent 25 years teaching A-Level photography in the UK and I agree with Andrew, that the best beginner camera for teaching photography was the Pentax K1000. We had about 20 of them.

 

[JerseyDoug]

Yeah, but that's only true In Canada.

On a slightly more serious note, the camera that created the industry in the first place was the Leica IIIf. I still own one made in the 1950s, and apart from routine servicing and adjustment, it has been flawless. It's a marvel of simplicity and engineering. The IIIf literally created the 35mm still photography category as a widely accepted thing.

There are two IIIf's in my little collection of LTM Leicas. They are indeed excellent cameras. But when I was growing up in the 1950's in Illinois and then Oklahoma I saw a lot of Argus C3's and just two Leicas, one of which was my father's.

 

[chuckroast]

There are two IIIf's in my little collection of LTM Leicas. They are indeed excellent cameras. But when I was growing up in the 1950's in Illinois and then Oklahoma I saw a lot of Argus C3's and just two Leicas, one of which was my father's.

Yeah, those old C3s were everywhere back in the day. ISTR seeing them in Germany and in Canada back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. But the IIIf is what put serious 35mm photography on the map in the first place.

 

[Craig]

Wait! No. When you incident meter the shadows, the meter is supposed to be uprated. This is a BTZS (Beyond the Zone System - Davis) practice.

I was thinking of that exact demonstration when I read the quoted passage! What is the shadow is a very important question, with a non obvious answer.

 

[retina_restoration]

I don't. I do feel a great need to do what I can, where I can, to provide education in the face of much, much bad information and the echo chamber that is the Internet. How else do you explain the notion that the AE-1 is one of the greatest "beginner cameras"?

Seriously, I do think that with the high cost and possible frustration levels, it's good if those of us who started in the era of good Photo 101 courses can pass that knowledge on to younger folks. The more people into film, and the more people who have success with film, the better for all of us.

But I could also just have narcissistic tendencies.

I think you missed my point: if you want to help people do better, teach them, don’t spank them and tell them they’re doing it wrong.
That won't open people's minds. Create your own blog and publish instructional articles and then point people to them. If they like what you're saying, great. But "having a conversation" with people who are disinclined to actually learn anything seems pointless to me.
I mean, why do you care if there's a lot of traction for the idea that the AE-1 is a great camera for beginners?

Ultimately Reddit isn't a very good teaching opportunity - too much random noise and uninformed opinion. If you want to share your knowledge with a community, Reddit is surely the least likely environment to make use of a seasoned practitioner's knowledge. Format your wisdom into coherent, engaging chunks and publish them somewhere, so they can be perennially available and not simply lost in the stream of noise that is Reddit.

 

[Adam W]

View attachment 401147

That XKCD cartoon was on my mind when I wrote that post!