My Jobo's are on their last legs

L Gebhardt · Dec 15, 2009

You could have automatic chemical delivery without pumps if you suspend the chemical up high and use a solenoid to open and close the right valves. From what I have seen it would be pretty simple to program a PIC Micro to operate all these solenoids. You could even raise and lower the tank with the right motors. Maybe a stepper motor pulling a cable to raise the arm. That would be more robust than the Jobo arm. Then you can free up your technicians to do other work as the fully automated processor does the film.

olleorama · Dec 15, 2009

Having worked a metal lathe I would say it a bit overkill for the process. It is reversible though. I think most attempts at reusing an existing appliance will fail. Better to try to find a good standardised motor. Like the Bosch one. Using a lathe would be extremely wasteful and hence expensive.

I was sketching something like this for my own private use. I had this weird idea of using a strong neodym magnet as a coupling for my SS tanks. Probably no good for the jobo tanks though.

If you plan to go down the microcontroller route I would give you the advice to not use any made-in-china lo-fi models. Try to use industrial standard ones instead. I worked as a service technician for a while, and there is a certain quality difference.

epatsellis · Dec 15, 2009

paul ewins said:
Bob,
the only real difficulty in replacing the ATL series is the automation, which you have said you are happy to live without. Broken down into it's component parts a CPP (which is what any ATL without automation effectively is) consists of:
1. a pump to circulate the water
2. a heater coil and thermostat circuit to control the temperature.
3. a motor to turn the drum with a speed control
4. the gearing from the motor to the drum and the reversing control.
5. the lift

1. should be an off the shelf part
2. should also be an off the shelf solution
3. is allegedly a wiper motor from a BMW. The speed control should be dead simple since the only thing that matters is the output RPM of the motor. Simply calculate the RPM at each of the speeds and then all the replacement has to do is replicate the speeds, not replicate how Jobo does it.
4. should be able to be reused
5. should be able to be reused, or reengineered in metal for more strength.

Broken down into those components you should be able to find a light engineering works that could replicate it relatively easily.

Going further than that involves being able to deliver a precise amount of chemicals from the tanks to the drums so that you can use bulk chemicals rather than measuring them out for each run. There are various solutions to that, but it would be to simpler to avoid altogether and use the CPP/CPA style square bottles (Ilford bottles are the same size) and have enough of them that you can set up three or four runs in advance.

Bob, nearly anybody that works with industrial automation can do this. A servo or stepper motor can be driven at any speed (and reversed quite readily) by a PLC (which would also handle all the automation tasks as well) No single task is really that difficult to re-engineer, integrating them together almost demands the use of a PLC or automation computer. I'd love to tackle a project like this, but I've returned to school full time to complete my degree and spare time is scant. I'd be happy to be a person to bounce ideas off of, and can make a few inquiries to some of the CNC people I know in the area, as I sold off all my automation inventory a few years ago.

erie

*edit* Seeing the above responses, I'd suggest a small PLC (try AutomationDirect.com for inexpensive units) driving a stepper (www.geckodrive.com for drivers) and a little bit of wiring, you can add a temperature controller, solid state relay for the circ. pump., etc. Any industrial grade component would be miles more reliable than what JOBO used. As far as dispensing chemistry, Wing-Lynch's approach is ingenious, uses compressed air or nitrogen and only requires off the shelf pneumatic control solenoids. Pretty easy to create from scratch. I have several spare tanks here, if you need pics and ideas.

Bob Carnie · Dec 15, 2009

Folks
I can't thank you enough for all the new ideas , I am starting to envision a way to quickly add the tempered chemicals via a pump like the replenisher pumps on my processors , I need to get 1-2 litres , depending upon tank size quickly into the tank , lets say faster than one could pour.

We will bounce the ideas off this group to see any flaws, improvements or observations after we meet later this month.

TheFlyingCamera · Dec 15, 2009

As to filling, you could have a system where the chems are gravity fed via a large diameter pipe into the tank, which is regulated by a four-way stopcock type valve. You might have to have the valve custom made, but it would be far cheaper than a repair to or replacement with a new Jobo.

glbeas · Dec 15, 2009

olleorama said:
Having worked a metal lathe I would say it a bit overkill for the process. It is reversible though. I think most attempts at reusing an existing appliance will fail. Better to try to find a good standardised motor. Like the Bosch one. Using a lathe would be extremely wasteful and hence expensive.

Not so if you are building on an inexpensive woodturning lathe. There are some models that cost less new than you can build a platform yourself. It's pretty common for the pulley compartment to have a hatch on the back to facilitate changing speeds, you can mount an outboard motor on quite a few of these to replace the stock motor, I've seen a few for sale reworked like this. A water bath can be mounted on the bed of the lathe, depth depending on the size of the lathe. A 10 inch lathe like I have would allow 5 inches of clearance from the spindle to the bed, plenty of room for a 4 inch deep tray. Harbour Freight sells a really cheap lathe with a 14 inch swing which would get you a good six inch deep tank. A little searching on Craigslist or the local want ads might come up with some suitable candidates.

Bob Carnie · Dec 15, 2009

I should mention here Scott that the chems need to be tempered so I was thinking stainless steel holding tanks in a water bath with a sump pump or bellows like replenisher pump drawing from the stainless steel tanks at temperature.

TheFlyingCamera said:
As to filling, you could have a system where the chems are gravity fed via a large diameter pipe into the tank, which is regulated by a four-way stopcock type valve. You might have to have the valve custom made, but it would be far cheaper than a repair to or replacement with a new Jobo.

Kimberly Anderson · Dec 15, 2009

Bob Carnie said:
Michael

The motor I am referring to is a Bosch waterpump motor that is used in the Jobo. I got mine from the garage *volkswagan* down the street.
If you have a Jobo, keep them as they may come in handy some day.

Oh I know about the VW in-line waterpump motor. I have seen one in action before. I was referring to the actual motor that rotates the drum. Allegedly, and I read this on some other website, that motor is a BMW windshield wiper motor.

I was curious if everyone that was considering stepper motors would want to know what motor that was from and if replacements were available.

DanielStone · Dec 15, 2009

so bob,

are you looking to just build a base that has a belt drive to the motor? I'd image that if you have different sized tanks (2500 vs 1500 series), you could just have some riser-type blocks made, so that you could have the same wheels underneath the tank for both, kind of like the Jobo setup. just make em out of stainless, not cheapo plastic(like Jobo)...

if you're just going to pour manually, you can take the tanks off of the base(tanks in waterbath during rotation), dump the chems, put back on the base(so it begins turning again), and have a 3/4" flexible tube attached to a large funnel(like a beer bong basically )

then you wouldn't have to worry about holding a flexible tube, allowing you to pour the chems(from the tempering bath), either a separate unit(like the Jobo one), with chems in stainless beakers or the Jobo 1ltr/2ltr chem bottles.

if you had a separate tempering bath from the unit, it would allow you to heat up the chemicals much more quickly, meanwhile having the tempered water in the rotating base, getting warmed up. if you had 140deg F water heating up the chems, with your 101F (accounting for plastic as Jobo users do know )....

sorry I'm rambling, I just really would like to have a part in this project if I could, cause I'm really interested in seeing this project come about the way you need it too. its fun too!

-Dan

richard ide · Dec 15, 2009

I do not think that a WW motor is adequate for this type of application. I put 28,000 hours on one of my processor drive motors, only replacing the brushes once. A lot of good designs are crapped on by using parts to keep the profit margin as high as possible. And making work for service personnel.

olleorama · Dec 15, 2009

glbeas said:
Not so if you are building on an inexpensive woodturning lathe. There are some models that cost less new than you can build a platform yourself. It's pretty common for the pulley compartment to have a hatch on the back to facilitate changing speeds, you can mount an outboard motor on quite a few of these to replace the stock motor, I've seen a few for sale reworked like this. A water bath can be mounted on the bed of the lathe, depth depending on the size of the lathe. A 10 inch lathe like I have would allow 5 inches of clearance from the spindle to the bed, plenty of room for a 4 inch deep tray. Harbour Freight sells a really cheap lathe with a 14 inch swing which would get you a good six inch deep tank. A little searching on Craigslist or the local want ads might come up with some suitable candidates.

Problems with the craigslist lathes is that there not standardised and will hence be hard to replace when they fail. Parts for cheap lathes will probably also be a problem and cheap lathes will generally be a bad lathe (shorter life-span). So if we follow the cheap lathe route we end up we're the OP is today.

Spinning around a 30"x40" material will probably require more than 4" of tray, don't you think

Also I rather turn a potentiometer than changing gear belts.

John Koehrer · Dec 15, 2009

glbeas said:
Not so if you are building on an inexpensive woodturning lathe. There are some models that cost less new than you can build a platform yourself. It's pretty common for the pulley compartment to have a hatch on the back to facilitate changing speeds, you can mount an outboard motor on quite a few of these to replace the stock motor, I've seen a few for sale reworked like this. A water bath can be mounted on the bed of the lathe, depth depending on the size of the lathe. A 10 inch lathe like I have would allow 5 inches of clearance from the spindle to the bed, plenty of room for a 4 inch deep tray. Harbour Freight sells a really cheap lathe with a 14 inch swing which would get you a good six inch deep tank. A little searching on Craigslist or the local want ads might come up with some suitable candidates.

Crap! I just flashed on a 40 HP Mercury outboard!

glbeas · Dec 15, 2009

John Koehrer said:
Crap! I just flashed on a 40 HP Mercury outboard!

Thats what I'm talkin about!

John Koehrer · Dec 15, 2009

I don't think anyone(maybe I missed it) suggested CL, but $300-$500 should get a decent quality wood lathe NEW.
He's not on a shoestring budget but building a prototype could be done from CL. Standardization would be with new product. Hell, you could even take a cheapy & put roller bearings & a solid shaft into it.
I don't know if Grainger supplies has a Canadian outlet, but they got lots of stuff in the catalog

glbeas · Dec 15, 2009

olleorama said:
Problems with the craigslist lathes is that there not standardised and will hence be hard to replace when they fail. Parts for cheap lathes will probably also be a problem and cheap lathes will generally be a bad lathe (shorter life-span). So if we follow the cheap lathe route we end up we're the OP is today.

Spinning around a 30"x40" material will probably require more than 4" of tray, don't you think

Also I rather turn a potentiometer than changing gear belts.

That might be, but theres way more of these built than Jobos and at the speed they will be turning would be a vastly underused capacity. I dare say the cheapest wood lathe on the market is a hundred times as strong as a Jobo unit. You won't break it.
And who says you are going to be changing belts? You can put a speed control on darn near anything. A reduction gear motor from Graingers mounted up with a speed control .and you would be set for life.
And a 30 inch circumference works out to less than 10 inches. Theres plenty of full sized wood lathes with over 12" of swing. It's do-able.
I think with a magnetic coupler like the CPE units employ upsized to handle the load would make this a fairly user friendly machine.

richard ide · Dec 15, 2009

One of the main problems with adapting a lathe or any other piece of similar machinery is that the materials they are made of are not resistant to photo chemicals. I have produced amazing amounts of rust on stainless steel which was not type 316. Anything other than this material is not even worth experimenting with except plastic.

epatsellis · Dec 15, 2009

I would not use a lathe myself, but a purpose build system, driven by a servo or stepper motor. Adapting is fine for a one off, hobbyist approach, but Bob's requirements are essentially 5 nines or better up time, a stepper has no brushes and typically run for decades without as much a hint of needing service.

dr5chrome · Dec 15, 2009

..ill bet you could get every part needed here; http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/start.shtml

dw

Bob Carnie said:
Folks
I can't thank you enough for all the new ideas , I am starting to envision a way to quickly add the tempered chemicals via a pump like the replenisher pumps on my processors , I need to get 1-2 litres , depending upon tank size quickly into the tank , lets say faster than one could pour.

We will bounce the ideas off this group to see any flaws, improvements or observations after we meet later this month.

Mick Fagan · Dec 16, 2009

One thing more about quality stepper motors. I have a very heavy duty LASER engraver, manufactured in the USA.

When I bought it, it was almost twice the cost of the competition, but the quality of the electronic controlling software and hardware and stepper motors, is something else. That machine, is the best thing I have ever purchased to make money with.

After reading the latest additions to the thread and also from following it from day one, I have some food for thought.

I just did some back of the envelope calculations regarding the stepper motors in my machine, which has three stepper motors. The absolute minimum annual directional changes the least used stepper motor does, is approximately 1,036,800 in a calender year.

This machine is almost 15 years old and I have replaced the wiring looms twice on this stepper motor in this time frame, but the motor itself, just keeps on running. By the way the accuracy this motor steps to is 1/300th of an inch for about 80% of the work, and 1/600th of an inch for the other 20%.

When doing circular cuts the motors turn the bed and cutting head arrangement at a speed, which interestingly, is about the speed of the 2500 Jobo drums. This was something I had thought about if the LASER machine broke down totally.

The varied opposition manufacturers to this machine in it's day, are virtually dead and buried. Essentially the early LASER machines ran cheap stepper motors, mine were sourced from about the best the USA could produce.

Whilst a lot of people around the world, myself included, often rubbish the quality of a lot of American stuff, when they build really good stuff, nothing beats them. They may equal them, but I rarely have heard of them being beaten.

I would humbly suggest that once you have a prototype up and running and know where you are heading, then quality stepper motors will be running easily, day in, day out, decade in, decade out.

Mick.

Bob Carnie · Dec 16, 2009

Go home to sleep and look what happens..

Elevator is not on a strict budget on this, rather we would like to build it tough right from the start . The first one will give us the opportunity to run a few hundred rolls and a bunch of sheet film to gage how well it operates and look for glitches.
I am still using each days my Omega's , Durst and Deveere enlargers and they date back over 25 years.. Just replace the bulbs and make sure aligned and start printing.
Now thats what I am talking about.

Bob Carnie · Dec 16, 2009

I think the largest sheet of film will be 30inch by 40inch and the tube will be 40 or longer inches.
I am not so sure that this device in my mind now is sitting in a tray but I am now thinking the rollers are various widths along the length to handle odd shape jobo tanks**more than one run of 120 film going at once, very robust, and replacable for different size tubes.
I have 16x20 inch tanks now and have used 1litre in them for development, I am thinking the larger tubes will hold 2-3 litres of chemicals for each run, so the roller design and motors/drive shaft driving them should be very robust.

olleorama said:
Problems with the craigslist lathes is that there not standardised and will hence be hard to replace when they fail. Parts for cheap lathes will probably also be a problem and cheap lathes will generally be a bad lathe (shorter life-span). So if we follow the cheap lathe route we end up we're the OP is today.

Spinning around a 30"x40" material will probably require more than 4" of tray, don't you think

Also I rather turn a potentiometer than changing gear belts.

Bob Carnie · Dec 16, 2009

Richard

I am thinking that there is the possibility that the chems will not touch the rollers as all the dump and fill will go on a side tank near the processor.

richard ide said:
One of the main problems with adapting a lathe or any other piece of similar machinery is that the materials they are made of are not resistant to photo chemicals. I have produced amazing amounts of rust on stainless steel which was not type 316. Anything other than this material is not even worth experimenting with except plastic.

DanielStone · Dec 16, 2009

so bob,

why not just make a bigger, stronger version of a jobo CPP2 without the lift mechanism? and if you're using the cog heads in place of the magnetic bases(standard connection without lift), all you'd have to change is the connection to the motor. you could just have a motor control set to a set # of rotations, it would slow down, and reverse, all on its own. I'm thinking an electric, or why not just build it JUST like the Jobo, but with better quality parts, that are readily available off the shelf?

like this one, just double the length... and made of stainless steel

-Dan

richard ide · Dec 16, 2009

Bob,
I had a Dupont 24" lith processor; every thing type 316 stainless. When I scrapped it after 12 years; no rust anywhere. I had 36 x 48 non 316 stainless tanks with rust just about everywhere (outside) after having them for a couple of years. No big deal as they were old when I got them. Just the acid in the air was enough. One day I mixed 5 gallons of Dupont fixer with hardener containing aluminum chloride. Next morning there was a 1/2" band of rust above the liquid level.

Bob Carnie · Dec 17, 2009

Hi Dan

At this point , with so many ideas floating around its going to take Richard and I some time to sort through the references from every one here , then look at my working space, then we will have a better idea what would be the best solution.
One thing about the cogs,or attachment,
I envision more than one tank rolling on the base at one time.. PE suggestion of the basket system reminded me about how easy it was to do larger amounts of film in one run.
With a single cog then I am limited to one run at a time, but with long rollers turning the tanks it is feasable to run more than one tank at a time.

Bob

DanielStone said:
so bob,

why not just make a bigger, stronger version of a jobo CPP2 without the lift mechanism? and if you're using the cog heads in place of the magnetic bases(standard connection without lift), all you'd have to change is the connection to the motor. you could just have a motor control set to a set # of rotations, it would slow down, and reverse, all on its own. I'm thinking an electric, or why not just build it JUST like the Jobo, but with better quality parts, that are readily available off the shelf?

like this one, just double the length... and made of stainless steel

-Dan

My Jobo's are on their last legs

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