My Jobo's are on their last legs

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Bob Carnie

Bob Carnie

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Thanks for the names , so far I like FOBO from Daniel as it does reflect my feelings.

Regarding finding parts, I really think this one is out of the question as I am not thinking of slowly walking into the sunset but rather I believe we will be processing more and more film.. Just think of it APUG is an oasis of luddites who still put film in mechanical cameras, Most labs I would not include DR5 in this statement are willing to drop their film production when it becomes less profitable, I think Dave and I share the same love of film photography and have learned how to build little niche businesses providing film processing. We are becoming more busy because there still is a group of people wanting to expose images the way some of the masters of the past. This will indeed force them to put film in their cameras and hopefully then seek out Labs like Elevator or DR5 to process the film. Shrinking market for sure but less operators willing to produce first rate film process.
I also believe I have figured out a way to make large film for alternative processes that Elevator wants to persue which will indeed put pressure on the equipment and operators to finish.
Has anyone here tried to replace a lift arm or a water pump for an Alt 2300 or Alt 3? No easy task and btw just try to order the parts and see what happens. I guess if I was located in Europe I would feel different as there probably is a easier way of getting parts and service.
Also like any piece of equipment is there not a 7 year parts availability after the machines are no longer made. Where are we on this with Jobo machines.

I plan to put a lot of stress on my equipment with large tanks , probably lots of chemicals and quite frankly the old equipment that I have will not be up to the task.

I am meeting with Richard and Peter here in Toronto Dec 27 or 28 and try to sort out problems/ideas/suggestions to build a prototype by Feb if we can.

I am pretty sure that the main problem will be the different tank configuration and keeping the film level while rotation is on. Each tank is different and the very large tanks will be different again and this is where things may bog down.** possible different rubber roller widths and shapes to hold the tank level , the rollers would be raised and geared at the end to allow different tanks to sit properly**

I really like the idea posted early in this thread with the unit separate from the controls, I envision a very robust base with possible water bath hooked up to the tempering device to keep the chems in . These units will take up a bit of space but for the first unit I have enough room, Once we go to four units then I will probably have to build a dedicated film room .
Also by having large, large rollers we should be able to run a few runs at a time and any old timers here who did dip and dunk in baskets will remember starting the timer for the longest roll time , start the process and watch the timer and then pop in the next longest roll time and continue popping in film until the run was finished.

I am sure this was what PE was alluding too in his post about baskets and nitrogean burst. In the day any basket line with a competent operator could easily out perform my Jobo's, the only problem was keeping an operator interested day in day out to perform this at peak levels, in fact that is why I went to Jobo's in the first place and was Jobo's marketing pitch for people to buy them.
I think I should be able to do the same thing with this new device with my young operators who have the hand eye co-ordination to make this happen.


Keep the ideas coming , we are not going to salvage the old machines , except make the unit work with the different tubes or tanks we have.
 

alanrockwood

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Are the automated Jobo machines, like the ATL 2300 higher quality than the smaller semi-manual Jobo machines like the CPE?

I have had a couple a Jobo CPE machines, and quite frankly they are is very flimsy. In fact I am tempted to call that instrument a piece of junk, quality wise, especially considering the prices they charged for them when they were new. I also have a photo-therm, and the quality on that machine is an order of magnitude better than the Jobo. However, as I am sure you all know, the Photo-therm will only do film, not prints.
 
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Bob Carnie

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Renato
The plant is in New Jersey, they may have refurbs there.
Their product is called a sidekick .
I've heard good things about the Photo-Therm but I have never seen one for sale - not even on the German site.! Maybe they are rare?
 

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so bob,

just so I can get a better picture of what you and your engineer friend are going to do, could I show you something I was thinking of when I first read this post? I'm drawing it up now as I type this, so I'll post it here as soon as I got it done.

are you set up for the magnetic bases for your tanks, or the cog heads?

-Dan

EDIT: i mean, are you wanting to use the cog heads for your tanks when you have the new machines, or the magnetic bases like for the CPE/A's?
 
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DanielStone

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here's some rough sketches of what I was thinking..

technical details are a little sketchy, since I'm not that sure about electronics, others here will know much more than I. I'm coming from more of a purely design view...


4185011547_33f9a62ae2_b.jpg


4185772032_82e3f8f591_b.jpg



-Dan
 

dr5chrome

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..ill have to look up his contact info, but I have communicated often with Rodger King in the past. He is well into his 80s, but if you don't know who Rodger King is, he is likely "THE" authority on rotary processing. His company, 'King Concept' was the 1st real rotary processor. Every drum processor was modeled from his machines. Though he is retired Ill bet he'd be interested in this project.

If you'd like his email contact me.

regards

dw


Renato
The plant is in New Jersey, they may have refurbs there.
Their product is called a sidekick .
 

glbeas

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Your usual woodworking lathe turns pretty quick unless you rework the drive pulleys and you really don't have a good idea of the real speed on most.
Problem is most have a bottom speed from 250 to 600 rpm. For instance the Delta lathe is reversible and has a range down to 250. You would need to replace the drive motor with a 10:1 reduction geared motor to get into the right range of speeds. In this case you would be building a control unit for the reversing with relays and timers to run the motor.
Sounds like you have the techs for that.
I would think the best bet would be to get a second hand lathe bed, strip it down and rebuild it to suit. Some of these old rigs are barebones enough to start with that they can be modified easily with an outboard motor and a coupler made to fit the headstock that the tanks can hook up to. Most of them has a morse taper in the headstock that a chuck can be mounted into that will grip a shaft pretty easily.
 
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Just a few observations.
1. With a micro-controller and enough servos, you can automate almost any process.
2. The 24V motors are likely because of DIN regulations. Higher voltages than that involve mega safety considerations. German process equipment often operates at 24V, as it is cheaper than using wall voltages (120 to 240V). The power supply can be country-specific, and can be located far away from the wet stuff.
3. This sounds like a fun project.
4. Sourcing the electric motors (servos) is going to be harder than designing the mechanical devices.
5. Sourcing reliable pumps will be harder than finding good servo motors.

You might consider a non-electric motive power source, like compressed air or a hydraulic pump. The compressor or pump costs some money, but the servo cylinders can be relatively inexpensive. One compressor can supply more than one process machine.
 

Photo Engineer

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Have you ever thought of fish tank pumps?

When I took mine apart (Jobo), I was struck with the similarity to a fish tank pump.

PE
 

DanielStone

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PE,

that's what I was thinking, with simple hot/cold water hookups directly to the bottom of the basin, and a drain valve for when not in use...

a big, industrial grade one though. most I've found top out at like 95deg F though, so not hot enough for C-41 or E6.

-Dan
 

paul ewins

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Just looking through eBay there are lots of electric bicycle motors that might be suitable. The output RPM is way too high but as it already has a cog on the shaft ready for a bicycle chain it should be relatively easy to gear it down to an appropriate level. Another possible option would be the old singer style external sewing machine motors although I don't know whether they would have enough torque.
 
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Bob Carnie

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All

Ok now we are smoking, the brainiacs are coming out of the woodwork with some great Ideas.
Water Pump is a no brainer or at least I think so, I just bought a bosch motar at my local Volkswagen garage that is part of the Alt2300, $250 but it is brand new with no wear or tear.
As long as they make volkswagens I think this part is safe.

As I have pointed out this is for long term operation and I am not budget driven on this machine. My business partner would kill me for saying this. But from the sounds of things parts should not be the problem for the mechanical side of things, Richard has a complete shop to manufacture in plastic, wood and stainless steel.
I am wondering now ideas on a programable timer, controller that stores the different processes and starts the whole process.

Would we think of monitoring the water bath with temp probes to assist the opreator in bringing every thing up to temp?
Would we have the tanks rotate over a dry platform or would we want the tubes rotating in tempered water?
If you look at the Jobo tanks they are odd shaped and would not lie flat on the rollers, could we use very large rollers and lathe down spots for the hoods of the tanks?
If so would we make separate rollers for different size film so we can process more than one tank at a time?

Enquiring minds need to know,

Just to say I appreciate the responses and actually have not gone backwards over the suggestions as I want to keep the ideas coming and Richard and I are not meeting until the end of the month.

thanks
Bob
 

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Burr Brown and Keithly both make controller boards for computers. Stick one in and you can programmably turn on and off a motor or you can set a temperature and control it. We did this to control our small scale emulsion making at Kodak this way.

One board for about $200 can control RPM, Temp and on and off through up to 8 I/O circuits. You have analog and digital switches in those 8 I/O devices.

PE
 

dwdmguy

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So how do you incorporate all the different commands for this board, amount of each chem etc... will you be writing an incorporated software, have a programeer do it, etc????
 

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A very simple Visual BASIC program with on/off commands will do it. The program will link in a .DLL supplied with the board. You say something like this - WHEN time = 1 and temp = 40 : Pump 1 ON; SPEED 1 = 10: INC = 1: WEND.

This tells the board that when 1 minute has elapsed, and the temp is 40 deg, then the first pump starts at 10 RPM and increments at 1 RPM / minute. Another command would shut it down. Etc. These are not exact representations as the actual commands are in the call to the .DLL.

PE
 
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Bob Carnie

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I am not sure.

But
In 1983 I operated a bubble memory computer that pushed all kinds of server motars on a overhead Lisle camera for photomontage , before PS was active.

I imagine something very simple can be programed or may even be a off the shelf item that I am not aware of.

I am only doing a countdown and turning on and off a rotational device. I am manually adding chemicals to the tank , the timer or machine will not be drawing chemicals from the water baths , we will be using good old elbow grease.

So how do you incorporate all the different commands for this board, amount of each chem etc... will you be writing an incorporated software, have a programeer do it, etc????
 

Gadfly_71

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Has anyone given any thought to using a high torque stepper motor combined with a micro-controller? Some of the micro-controllers are downright cheap too.

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My $.02 anyway.

Andrew
 

dwdmguy

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I would think it would be pretty easy as well. Not for me, but for someone, even a young person.
 
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Is anyone curious what the motor is? I have two sitting in a box at home... I also have friends in the auto industry. I could start poking around and see if I can't figure out which BMW this alleged 'wiper motor' is from.
 
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My favorite small micro-controller:

http://www.coridiumcorp.com/ARMmite.php

It has the right stuff. It comes with software, so you can program it in BASIC or C. It plugs into a PC via USB cable for programming. It has a wide temperature range. It's also just about the least expensive controller available, so you can use one for temperature control, and another for the overall developing process.

You will need an EE or a good electronics tech to wire from the breadboard area on this device to relays, amplifiers, etc.
 
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Has anyone given any thought to using a high torque stepper motor combined with a micro-controller? Some of the micro-controllers are downright cheap too.

Dead Link Removed

My $.02 anyway.

Andrew

That web page is a good example of what can be done with relatively little investment in engineering time. This DIY site has some interesting items.
 
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Bob Carnie

Bob Carnie

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Michael

The motor I am referring to is a Bosch waterpump motor that is used in the Jobo. I got mine from the garage *volkswagan* down the street.
If you have a Jobo, keep them as they may come in handy some day.

Is anyone curious what the motor is? I have two sitting in a box at home... I also have friends in the auto industry. I could start poking around and see if I can't figure out which BMW this alleged 'wiper motor' is from.
 
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