Rather than get caught up with weight I would start thinking about features, do you anticipate the need for a 1/1000 shutter, a power winder? The last version was made well into the 2000, like 2009, who services them, are there any parts available? Can you get a digital back for any? Once you map out your system then look at the weight and then decide is you live can with a 100 or more grams for the later model vs the feature you want.
In terms of a WLF vs prism finder, I use both, being on the short side I tend use a prism finder as it keeps me having to use a box standing or on my tip toes when shooting on a tripod or monopod.
After readng several reviews about the Mamiya 645e model, I am less enthusiastic about it. I am not anti-plastic. If the correct plastic is used in the right places in the required dimensions, it's a marvelous material. But everyone really makes a big deal of the "plastic feel" and questionable durability of the M465e. One person reported a crack in the plastic shell of his M645e. But aside from that, I read several reports from people who were delighted with the way the camera handles, and the quality of the images.For me, the 645e's inability to permit changing finders and viewing screens and backs is important. Maybe not for you though.
I also really like the left hand grip with included ellectronic trigger and hot shoe that my 645 Pro offers, although the thumb operated right handed rapid winder available for the 645e is attractive.
The relative young age of the 645e is attractive. I don't know how many of them were made - I expect considerably fewer than the Pro or Pro--Tl.
The penta-prism finders usable on the Super/Pro/Pro-Tl do give a slightly brighter view, with better corners, than the penta--mirror finders like the one built into the 645e, but the differences may not matter to you.
I have an impression that the 645e may be slightly less rugged than a 645 Pro, but I have no concrete information on that.
In any event, once you have one, you may want more, so at the very least the 645e will start you well, and serve as a good backup later. It will certainly not restrict you in any meaningful way, other than the fact it doesn't offer the ability to change films mid--roll.
After readng several reviews about the Mamiya 645e model, I am less enthusiastic about it. I am not anti-plastic. If the correct plastic is used in the right places in the required dimensions, it's a marvelous material. But everyone really makes a big deal of the "plastic feel" and questionable durability of the M465e. One person reported a crack in the plastic shell of his M645e. But aside from that, I read several reports from people who were delighted with the way the camera handles, and the quality of the images.
Apparently the 645e is made in China? I am not anti-China; some of the more recent Chinese goods seem to be well made - but that has not always been the case. For older cameras, I would generally prefer Japanese manufacture. Can any say if the 645e is the only Mamiya medium format camera made in China?
I really don't care much about changing finders and backs, but I am tempted by the more recent, and more durable M645 Pro models. Unfortunately, the Pro prices I am seeing on the US auction site are a little more than I want to pay.
I'll add the same for the SQ-A backs I own. I have 4 120 backs ranging from mint to used, a corroded 220 that still works and a battered 120J housing with a standard 6x6 insert. Unfortunately, the 6x4.5 was lost somewhere well before I bought it, but it was cheap so I kept it for parts.I'm surprised people have had light leak issues with the ETR cameras.
When I was shopping for an MF system, it seemed that there are many Bronica components (both ETR and SQ) available at reasonable prices, so if and when something goes wrong, it can be replaced without spending too much. When they were new, Bronicas seem to be reasonably priced and were also apparently a firm favourite with students and lower level pros.You might contact Jimmy Koh to see if he can recommend someone for Bronica parts and service:
Out of the 5 lenses I've bought for my SQ-A, I've only had problems with one. The original one that was badly stored for 10+ years which started off with some fungus damage. I bought a second 80mm lens with a damaged iris (looked like an attempted repair went wrong) for £30 and swapped the elements over, then sold the left over bits as a free-lens/effect device for £10!Seiko electronic shutters don't look like they require much maintenance, and I was able to fix my lenses with surprising ease (but I do have some prior experience).
Kiev 6c or 60. You can find these serviced on ebay. You can have it and a normal lens for much less than your target.
Very fine system. Great optics.... actually, so was the C330!
my experience is that there is little quality increase unless you move up to 6x9,which is almost on par with 4x5.How sensitive to size and weight are you? Negative size produces better image quality.
Are you interested in the quality a 6x7 or 6x9 image gives you, vs a 6x6 negative?
Don't overlook the medium format folders. One of my go-to cameras is a franka solida III Much easier to carry.......
Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge and experience. I am still trying to sort through the various model details and differences between different lens series, prism finders, etc.
I am definitely not considering any 6x7 models. In fact, I have about decided that even most 6x6 models are bigger than I want to carry. So I am concentrating on 645 right now.
RE: Kiev 6c or 60 - I really like the idea of a Soviet / Ukrainian camera, but everything I read about them scares me. And the size and weight of the Kiev 60 is scary, too.
By coincidence, I just discovered a Soviet camera which does interest me: the Horizon Perfekt aka 203, aka S3Pro. I saw some panorama photos by Photrio member @brbo which really got my attention. I plan to start another thread to discuss what options are available for panoramic cameras. I am mentioning it here because I also discovered that Bronica made a special back which takes 35mm film and shoots 24mmx54mm panoramic negatives. Cool!
Previously, I said I did not need interchangable backs, but the Bronica 135W back has got me interested. Not that I will probably ever buy one because they are so rare and expensive. The few available on the US auction site are listed for $350-500 - which is about the same, or more, than the whole Bronica ETRSi camera with lens. And twice as much as the Horizon 203/S3Pro panorama camera seen on the auction site.
My short list is now down to three:
Mamiya 645E - the most modern, by far, and probably the safest and most most practical choice for me
Mamiya M645 1000S - made from 1976 to 1990; would prefer one of the more recent ones, but it's hard to know when buying online. Maybe from serial numbers?
Zenza Bronica ETRS or ETRSi - hoping to find one with PE series lens (or at least, EII)
Just a matter of finding one with the right lens and prism for me.
EXCEPT that folders cannot use multiple lenses.
EXCEPT that folders cannot change rolls of film mid roll. So one can not switch to a faster or slower film nor can they switch between color and black & white mid roll.
EXCEPT that folders cannot use multiple lenses.
EXCEPT that folders cannot change rolls of film mid roll. So one can not switch to a faster or slower film nor can they switch between color and black & white mid roll.
For the weight and bulk, the few folders I've used so far make it pretty practical to just carry more folders as a solution comparable to multiple back/multiple lens system solutions.
Plus they stack neater in a small camera bag than lenses do, and you don't have to worry about lens caps and stuff... Less stuff to go missing. Bonus!
For the weight and bulk, the few folders I've used so far make it pretty practical to just carry more folders as a solution comparable to multiple back/multiple lens system solutions.
Plus they stack neater in a small camera bag than lenses do, and you don't have to worry about lens caps and stuff... Less stuff to go missing. Bonus!
Warning: hard sell incoming.
I will tell you one of film photography's best kept secrets: medium format stereo (known among practitioners as MF3D).
Get a Sputnik camera off ebay for about $100 and join the yahoo MF3D group. Lots of people there who are willing to help you get started. You will take images that will blow your socks off. Regular photography often can bring back strong memories of a place. Medium format stereo makes you feel like you are actually standing back in that place. There's nothing like it.
I know you said no twin lens reflex as your top priority, but this is a tri lens reflex, and I strongly urge you to reconsider. The Sputnik doesn't seem impressive at all, and as far as cameras go, it's not. But you have never seen images like the images that come out of a Sputnik. For about $100, what have you got to lose? You'll also need to pick up a handheld viewer which should run you an additional $100. It's lightweight as well. A tripod is pretty much a must, and a light meter as well, since you need to use slide film to get viewable images.
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