My First Medium Format - What Should It Be?

[runswithsizzers]

Rather than get caught up with weight I would start thinking about features, do you anticipate the need for a 1/1000 shutter, a power winder? The last version was made well into the 2000, like 2009, who services them, are there any parts available? Can you get a digital back for any? Once you map out your system then look at the weight and then decide is you live can with a 100 or more grams for the later model vs the feature you want.

In terms of a WLF vs prism finder, I use both, being on the short side I tend use a prism finder as it keeps me having to use a box standing or on my tip toes when shooting on a tripod or monopod.

I kind of assummed that repairing a $300-400 used camera would often times not be practical cost-wise, but since you brought it up:

Does anyone know of someplace where I might get a Mamiya or Bronica or Pentax 645 camera repaired in the USA?

Is any one of those 3 brands much better (or much worse) for parts availability than the others?

 

[runswithsizzers]

For me, the 645e's inability to permit changing finders and viewing screens and backs is important. Maybe not for you though.
I also really like the left hand grip with included ellectronic trigger and hot shoe that my 645 Pro offers, although the thumb operated right handed rapid winder available for the 645e is attractive.
The relative young age of the 645e is attractive. I don't know how many of them were made - I expect considerably fewer than the Pro or Pro--Tl.
The penta-prism finders usable on the Super/Pro/Pro-Tl do give a slightly brighter view, with better corners, than the penta--mirror finders like the one built into the 645e, but the differences may not matter to you.
I have an impression that the 645e may be slightly less rugged than a 645 Pro, but I have no concrete information on that.
In any event, once you have one, you may want more, so at the very least the 645e will start you well, and serve as a good backup later. It will certainly not restrict you in any meaningful way, other than the fact it doesn't offer the ability to change films mid--roll.

After readng several reviews about the Mamiya 645e model, I am less enthusiastic about it. I am not anti-plastic. If the correct plastic is used in the right places in the required dimensions, it's a marvelous material. But everyone really makes a big deal of the "plastic feel" and questionable durability of the M465e. One person reported a crack in the plastic shell of his M645e. But aside from that, I read several reports from people who were delighted with the way the camera handles, and the quality of the images.

Apparently the 645e is made in China? I am not anti-China; some of the more recent Chinese goods seem to be well made - but that has not always been the case. For older cameras, I would generally prefer Japanese manufacture. Can any say if the 645e is the only Mamiya medium format camera made in China?

I really don't care much about changing finders and backs, but I am tempted by the more recent, and more durable M645 Pro models. Unfortunately, the Pro prices I am seeing on the US auction site are a little more than I want to pay.

 

[Paul Howell]

If you have a fixed budget survey the models that fall within your perimeters. As you not interested in interchangeable backs, finders or screens and may a few lens would look at all 3 makes, Mamiya, Pentax, Bronica that fall within your budget and go with the best deal. Saying that also look at the prices of lens, a wide and shot tele, when added to the price of the body may make a difference.

 

[abruzzi]

I'm surprised people have had light leak issues with the ETR cameras. I have an ETRSi and an ETRS, four backs and a bunch of lenses and I've never encountered a light leak. I'm curious, are the leaks from between the body and the back or between the film insert and the rest of the back?

(all my backs are the later double release latch types, and all are 120.)

 

[MattKing]

All I can say about durability is that my sense of the build quality of the 645e seemed to match my impression of my 645 Pro. A camera with interchangeable film backs needs to be more robust at some places in order to deal with those backs.
As far as where other Mamiya products are/were made, I wouldn't be surprised if the current digital phase one/leaf products are made in China, but I don't know.

 

[Sirius Glass]

After readng several reviews about the Mamiya 645e model, I am less enthusiastic about it. I am not anti-plastic. If the correct plastic is used in the right places in the required dimensions, it's a marvelous material. But everyone really makes a big deal of the "plastic feel" and questionable durability of the M465e. One person reported a crack in the plastic shell of his M645e. But aside from that, I read several reports from people who were delighted with the way the camera handles, and the quality of the images.

Apparently the 645e is made in China? I am not anti-China; some of the more recent Chinese goods seem to be well made - but that has not always been the case. For older cameras, I would generally prefer Japanese manufacture. Can any say if the 645e is the only Mamiya medium format camera made in China?

I really don't care much about changing finders and backs, but I am tempted by the more recent, and more durable M645 Pro models. Unfortunately, the Pro prices I am seeing on the US auction site are a little more than I want to pay.

I just do not care for the 645 format at all. I use 6x6 and I like 6x7 and 6x8 in 120. I also like 4"x5" but that is OT in this thread.

 

[Fin]

I'm surprised people have had light leak issues with the ETR cameras.

I'll add the same for the SQ-A backs I own. I have 4 120 backs ranging from mint to used, a corroded 220 that still works and a battered 120J housing with a standard 6x6 insert. Unfortunately, the 6x4.5 was lost somewhere well before I bought it, but it was cheap so I kept it for parts.

None of them have any light leak problems.

 

[4season]

You might contact Jimmy Koh to see if he can recommend someone for Bronica parts and service:
http://kohscamera.com/repair.htm

But I try to do my own camera servicing, partly as a way to save money but also as a way of really appreciating what goes into making a camera. To date I have serviced an older Bronica MC lens with sticky shutter and a later Tamron-era -PE lens with fungus. Impression was: Tidy designs, Seiko electronic shutters don't look like they require much maintenance, and I was able to fix my lenses with surprising ease (but I do have some prior experience).

I haven't noticed any light leaks with my ETRSI, also with newer-style double-latch film back.

Pentax 645 sounds like an intriguing recommendation if you plan to use yours handheld a lot, but I've never had the opportunity to try one.

 

[Fin]

You might contact Jimmy Koh to see if he can recommend someone for Bronica parts and service:

When I was shopping for an MF system, it seemed that there are many Bronica components (both ETR and SQ) available at reasonable prices, so if and when something goes wrong, it can be replaced without spending too much. When they were new, Bronicas seem to be reasonably priced and were also apparently a firm favourite with students and lower level pros.

*Cough cough, poor mans Hasselblad *cough!

I had to replace a body (badly stored for 10+ years with fungus issues) that developed an intermittent electrical fault, replacement was £80. I still have the faulty one and will at some point soon either open it up and see if I can repair it, or eBay it for spares.

Seiko electronic shutters don't look like they require much maintenance, and I was able to fix my lenses with surprising ease (but I do have some prior experience).

Out of the 5 lenses I've bought for my SQ-A, I've only had problems with one. The original one that was badly stored for 10+ years which started off with some fungus damage. I bought a second 80mm lens with a damaged iris (looked like an attempted repair went wrong) for £30 and swapped the elements over, then sold the left over bits as a free-lens/effect device for £10!

Eventually, the Frankenstein lens started displaying the same electrical fault as the original body, so it was fully replaced with a new nice looking 80mm lens for £50!

The lenses are pretty easy to work on and yes apart from one damaged and one left in an attic, the shutters seem to be mostly reliable!

 

[Jim Blomfield]

I have traveled/hiked with 2 Mamiya 645e bodies since 2010. No problems.

 

[alanrockwood]

Kiev 6c or 60. You can find these serviced on ebay. You can have it and a normal lens for much less than your target.

I was going to say the same thing. The downside is that you might have to buy a couple of bodies to be sure you get one that works, and it might violate the last of the criteria of the original poster (about minimal hassle), however the price is right, and there are a lot of lenses available for modest cost. There are also 4.5x6 versions that pop up on ebay from time to time, so you can have both 6x6 and 4.5x6 bodies that operate the and handle identically.

On the other hand, if the original poster would be willing to modify his criteria and accept a heavier camera with a slightly bigger 6x7 negative then the Mamiya RB series would be hard to beat, since the image quality is unbeatable and the prices on used RB gear these days are at near rock bottom levels. The main down side is that the RB works best as a tripod camera rather than a hand-held camera, though it is possible to use them in a hand-held mode.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

My first medium format camera was the Mamiya C330, a loaner from my wife's uncle, in Japan. I used it for about a year. I bought a new RB67 with 127mm lens. The guy at the camera store in Japan said, go with 6x7, as it enlarges nicely onto 11x14 paper. At that time ('92) I knew very little about photography, so I took his word and I could afford it. I remember looking at other systems, including Hasselblad. The price tag was way over the top for me, and I didn't want a square negative...after using the C330, I wanted something different. Today, I would have no problems using square, as one could crop. I'm glad I went with the RB67. Very fine system. Great optics.... actually, so was the C330!

 

[Luckless]

Very fine system. Great optics.... actually, so was the C330!

I think that kind of plays into something that makes picking a camera so hard - Most of the ones that were made in any number, and are therefore readily available to buy used today, are generally good cameras, that have strong potential to work well.

Most of the ones that would fall into a "It is total junk, not worth it, so don't buy it" probably aren't on anyone's radar to buy at this point because they were already weeded out of the market in the first place.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

How sensitive to size and weight are you? Negative size produces better image quality.

Are you interested in the quality a 6x7 or 6x9 image gives you, vs a 6x6 negative?

my experience is that there is little quality increase unless you move up to 6x9,which is almost on par with 4x5.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge and experience. I am still trying to sort through the various model details and differences between different lens series, prism finders, etc.

I am definitely not considering any 6x7 models. In fact, I have about decided that even most 6x6 models are bigger than I want to carry. So I am concentrating on 645 right now.

RE: Kiev 6c or 60 - I really like the idea of a Soviet / Ukrainian camera, but everything I read about them scares me. And the size and weight of the Kiev 60 is scary, too.

By coincidence, I just discovered a Soviet camera which does interest me: the Horizon Perfekt aka 203, aka S3Pro. I saw some panorama photos by Photrio member @brbo which really got my attention. I plan to start another thread to discuss what options are available for panoramic cameras. I am mentioning it here because I also discovered that Bronica made a special back which takes 35mm film and shoots 24mmx54mm panoramic negatives. Cool!

Previously, I said I did not need interchangable backs, but the Bronica 135W back has got me interested. Not that I will probably ever buy one because they are so rare and expensive. The few available on the US auction site are listed for $350-500 - which is about the same, or more, than the whole Bronica ETRSi camera with lens. And twice as much as the Horizon 203/S3Pro panorama camera seen on the auction site.

My short list is now down to three:
Mamiya 645E - the most modern, by far, and probably the safest and most most practical choice for me
Mamiya M645 1000S - made from 1976 to 1990; would prefer one of the more recent ones, but it's hard to know when buying online. Maybe from serial numbers?
Zenza Bronica ETRS or ETRSi - hoping to find one with PE series lens (or at least, EII)

Just a matter of finding one with the right lens and prism for me.

 

[KN4SMF]

I'm with Sirius--I personally don't care for the 645 format per se. But neither do I deny that it is handy, and much like using a 35mm. I think the wedding photogs liked it. Plus it is a logical size for 8x10's, considering you'd be cropping a 2 1/4 square negative anyway to get an 8x10. All that said, I am of the firm belief that Mamiya never made a bad camera, and that you'll never go wrong with one. If I wanted a 645 camera, I'd buy an old Mamiya original 645 or 1000S in a New York minute and smile at my savings. Oh, other manufacturers made "better" cameras and lenses, but Mamiya is after all, true professional grade stuff, very rugged, and nothing they ever made could be called crap.

 

[abruzzi]

As you've seen, the 135W back for the ETRSi is crazy expensive--usually about $400. That screens seems to be far more common than the back. I bought mine just to get a split screen.

Some will tell you just to shoot on the 120 back and crop--you'd get the same field of view--but there is something irrationally cool about shooting in panoramic format on 35. Also the 135W back goces you access to some film stock that isn't available in 120.

 

[mr rusty]

Don't overlook the medium format folders. One of my go-to cameras is a franka solida III Much easier to carry.......

 

[Sirius Glass]

Don't overlook the medium format folders. One of my go-to cameras is a franka solida III Much easier to carry.......

EXCEPT that folders cannot use multiple lenses.
EXCEPT that folders cannot change rolls of film mid roll. So one can not switch to a faster or slower film nor can they switch between color and black & white mid roll.

 

[choiliefan]

The old Voigtlander Bergheil folder used a bayonet fitting for changing lenses.
Problem is the bayonets are very hard to come by.

 

[warden]

Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge and experience. I am still trying to sort through the various model details and differences between different lens series, prism finders, etc.

I am definitely not considering any 6x7 models. In fact, I have about decided that even most 6x6 models are bigger than I want to carry. So I am concentrating on 645 right now.

RE: Kiev 6c or 60 - I really like the idea of a Soviet / Ukrainian camera, but everything I read about them scares me. And the size and weight of the Kiev 60 is scary, too.

By coincidence, I just discovered a Soviet camera which does interest me: the Horizon Perfekt aka 203, aka S3Pro. I saw some panorama photos by Photrio member @brbo which really got my attention. I plan to start another thread to discuss what options are available for panoramic cameras. I am mentioning it here because I also discovered that Bronica made a special back which takes 35mm film and shoots 24mmx54mm panoramic negatives. Cool!

Previously, I said I did not need interchangable backs, but the Bronica 135W back has got me interested. Not that I will probably ever buy one because they are so rare and expensive. The few available on the US auction site are listed for $350-500 - which is about the same, or more, than the whole Bronica ETRSi camera with lens. And twice as much as the Horizon 203/S3Pro panorama camera seen on the auction site.

My short list is now down to three:
Mamiya 645E - the most modern, by far, and probably the safest and most most practical choice for me
Mamiya M645 1000S - made from 1976 to 1990; would prefer one of the more recent ones, but it's hard to know when buying online. Maybe from serial numbers?
Zenza Bronica ETRS or ETRSi - hoping to find one with PE series lens (or at least, EII)

Just a matter of finding one with the right lens and prism for me.

It sounds like you have a good handle on what you want. Keh has a 645E "bargain" body now if you're interested. I've purchased most of my gear from them and have been completely satisfied. (Returns are easy if you don't like the camera, and they have a warranty.)

 

[Luckless]

EXCEPT that folders cannot use multiple lenses.
EXCEPT that folders cannot change rolls of film mid roll. So one can not switch to a faster or slower film nor can they switch between color and black & white mid roll.

For the weight and bulk, the few folders I've used so far make it pretty practical to just carry more folders as a solution comparable to multiple back/multiple lens system solutions.

Plus they stack neater in a small camera bag than lenses do, and you don't have to worry about lens caps and stuff... Less stuff to go missing. Bonus!

 

[Sirius Glass]

EXCEPT that folders cannot use multiple lenses.
EXCEPT that folders cannot change rolls of film mid roll. So one can not switch to a faster or slower film nor can they switch between color and black & white mid roll.

For the weight and bulk, the few folders I've used so far make it pretty practical to just carry more folders as a solution comparable to multiple back/multiple lens system solutions.

Plus they stack neater in a small camera bag than lenses do, and you don't have to worry about lens caps and stuff... Less stuff to go missing. Bonus!

There are not a lot of wide angle and telephoto folding cameras around. In fact I have never seen a folding medium format telephoto camera. There are Graphic and Graflex folding telephoto cameras but I defy you to put one of them in your pocket.

 

[warden]

For the weight and bulk, the few folders I've used so far make it pretty practical to just carry more folders as a solution comparable to multiple back/multiple lens system solutions.

Plus they stack neater in a small camera bag than lenses do, and you don't have to worry about lens caps and stuff... Less stuff to go missing. Bonus!

You're right on both counts of course. Carrying folders is much easier, but of course there are always tradeoffs. I have some cameras here so I weighed them:

Two folding Plaubel Makinas (one wide and one normal lens) 2.63 kg
One Hasselblad + 2 film backs + 2 lenses (one wide and one normal) 2.78 kg

So they weigh almost the same but the folders are much slimmer and easier to carry if that matters to you. I like both styles and there's no wrong choice really.

 

[John51]

Warning: hard sell incoming.

I will tell you one of film photography's best kept secrets: medium format stereo (known among practitioners as MF3D).

Get a Sputnik camera off ebay for about $100 and join the yahoo MF3D group. Lots of people there who are willing to help you get started. You will take images that will blow your socks off. Regular photography often can bring back strong memories of a place. Medium format stereo makes you feel like you are actually standing back in that place. There's nothing like it.

I know you said no twin lens reflex as your top priority, but this is a tri lens reflex, and I strongly urge you to reconsider. The Sputnik doesn't seem impressive at all, and as far as cameras go, it's not. But you have never seen images like the images that come out of a Sputnik. For about $100, what have you got to lose? You'll also need to pick up a handheld viewer which should run you an additional $100. It's lightweight as well. A tripod is pretty much a must, and a light meter as well, since you need to use slide film to get viewable images.

You sold me. My son asked me what camera I'd like for my birthday so I said a Sputnik.