My First Medium Format - What Should It Be?

[Kevin Caulfield]

'Blad. There is no other option. Just ask Sirius.

 

[4season]

...On (Pentax 645)N bodies installed screen is a joke for manual focusing, and getting the NII is one of my regretful decisions. I don't care if metering is sophisticated (original is plenty good), highly touted knobs for setting shutter and few other parameters are indeed more intuitive and faster, but they are not worth in my opinion the drawbacks of manual focusing problems.

Couldn't you simply replace your 645N's focusing screen with one specifically designed for manual focus?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/303110803263

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Presently using a Mamiya C220 on loan from university for a medium format photography class. Love the big square negatives (but I don't love the waist level viewfinder with it's reversed image). Now I want to get a medium format film camera of my own.

I have a lot of experience with SLR film cameras in 135, but the Mamiya C220 is the only medium format camera I have ever used.

My predjuces and preferences are, in decreasing order:
- I am NOT looking for a TLR
- 6x6 or 645 format. definitely not looking for anything larger than 6x6
- moderate cost: I'd like to get a working camera and "normal" lens for around $400-450, US (less would be better)
- smaller and lighter prefered over bigger and heavier
- through-the-lens viewfinder prefered, the brighter the, the better
- OK image quality; I don't need the best, but hopefully no worse than the Mamiya C220. I will be shooting B&W, mostly
- minimal hassles: hope to avoid models which are known to jam frequently, take weird batteries, etc.

What I don't care about:
- no need for a bult-in light meter
- no need for a "deep" system; I may get one additional lens (wide angle) and a couple of filters but that's about it.
- synch speeds; I almost never use flash

So far my list includes
Pentax 645
Mamiya 645
Zenza Bronica - either 645 or 6x6
Kowa Six

Am I on the right track, or should I add / remove models from my list?

learn to love the waist-level finder because,eventually, You'll yearn for a Hasselblad.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

'Blad. There is no other option. Just ask Sirius.

Eventually, there really isn't.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Couldn't you simply replace your 645N's focusing screen with one specifically designed for manual focus?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/303110803263

You cannot find the screen that Pentax made for the N with raster and split-image. When you do, it will cost a jaw dropping amount. Pentax dropped the ball on this one big time. I have found after market screen to fit, but it is several stops darker and nearly useless due to that. At least I wound up paying only $15 in the end, so cheap lesson learnt.

For manual focusing there is no choice, original body is a must. Some may think that focus confirmation is good enough ... not even close. So outside of higher sophistication of N bodies, it was a mistake for me.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Eventually, there really isn't.

I could not disagree more. There is indeed life before, during and after Hasselblad. Let's focus on what is important in quality photography, and it has nothing to do with gear.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Thanks for your input. Several bloggers say the "N" model is the one to get - and prices reflect the greater popularity. So I would love to save some money on the earlier model. But your discussion of the battery compartment issue is troubling for me, because it may be difficult for me to be sure the contacts are OK before I buy one online. Two questions:
- Were the battery contacts improved in the "N" model, or do all Pentax 645 models suffer from this complaint?
- Is it possible to replace the OEM focussing screen on the N model to improve manual focusing?

I have not exactly located where the electrical disconnection takes place. On 2 bodies I had that problem (now one gone) camera ran fine of external battery pack (also with same battery holder), so the problem seems to be in the battery to grip section. Since I can run it on external I have not spent much time looking into it. The N's have different grip and battery holder design (better) and I have not heard of these issues.

 

[Kevin Caulfield]

Eventually, there really isn't.

You know it's true, Ralph.

 

[removed account4]

Eventually, there really isn't.

Maybe for some, but even though I have been offered Hassys to use, and have had the $$ to buy one with a couple of lenses to go with it ... it struck me. Anything I could do with a Hassy, I could do with anything else. Having a Hassy is more of a "status symbol" than anything else, and I really don't care about status symbols. Then again, if I yearned for pristine sharp f45 and be there type images, so could run with all the rest of the people who yearn for the same types of images; maybe it would be something for me to think about. One could easily argue that a HOLGA fitted with a Zeiss Lens would give the same exact images as a Hassy, and in the end maybe more interesting images since the user would have realized there is no such thing as perfection, silver bullets don't even kill mythical werewolves, and all the $$ saved by NOT buying a status symbol could be used to buy film and paper, and chemistry, and maybe processing.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Maybe for some, but even though I have been offered Hassys to use, and have had the $$ to buy one with a couple of lenses to go with it ... it struck me. Anything I could do with a Hassy, I could do with anything else. Having a Hassy is more of a "status symbol" than anything else, and I really don't care about status symbols. Then again, if I yearned for pristine sharp f45 and be there type images, so could run with all the rest of the people who yearn for the same types of images; maybe it would be something for me to think about. One could easily argue that a HOLGA fitted with a Zeiss Lens would give the same exact images as a Hassy, and in the end maybe more interesting images since the user would have realized there is no such thing as perfection, silver bullets don't even kill mythical werewolves, and all the $$ saved by NOT buying a status symbol could be used to buy film and paper, and chemistry, and maybe processing.

Some people are really pissed at you now .

No matter what is said, there is always someone who will bring up these nonsense claims how gear changes ones photography. Then they drink more and continue living in a dreamland of not knowing jack about how they got there. Being gear collector in addition to picture taker, there have been mechanical marvels that easily surpass Hasselblad in precision and complexity, both requiring superior attention to detail and manufacturing exactness to work. Every time you hear about a Zeiss glass, Planar and Summicrons' "superiority" you have lost the game before it even started.

i will only say that if a Hassy makes you go out and use it more than other cameras you had, go for it. It isn't a technical cure to problems one may be having, but it might be a kick needed to understand they joys of film photography.

Kudos to you for saying what you said.

 

[4season]

If through-the-lens viewing isn't absolutely required, it would almost be a crime not to mention rangefinder cameras such as the Fuji GA645zi which for me was about the best general-purpose medium format camera, small and light enough to carry around on a day-to-day basis.

http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Fujifilm_GA645Zi

55-90mm zoom lens!

Mine developed hairline cracks in the hard plastic grip. Which didn't seem to affect usability at all, but it might be a good way to get a better price.

I like medium format SLRs as much as the next guy, but by comparison, they're all heavy as bricks.

 

[wahiba]

If you are used to modern cameras that fit in the pocket then go for 120 folding camera. There are plenty around in good condition with a decent lens, and folded they still do go into the pocket.

 

[pentaxuser]

I have a P545N and with FA 75mm lens the AF systems performs quite well It no doubt doesn't do this as well as say a Nikon F5 but for the kind of scenes the F5 is much better at, any MF camera is not the best option. With the A lens which I believe the P645 uses the N on manual will focus accurately the A lens and also the FA lens on the manual setting. The green hexagonal light( a great device for those whose eyes are not what they were comes on when on manual setting and when I switch to the AF setting nothing changes with the focus I conclude that the N gives you the best of both worlds in terms both auto focus and manual focus

Yes the N is more expensive but other than that I am unclear why the N has any drawbacks compared to the non N 645

We can of course all be "burned" and buy a faulty camera when purchasing either of the these two or any other camera which has already been used

pentaxuser

 

[Alan Gales]

learn to love the waist-level finder because,eventually, You'll yearn for a Hasselblad.

Well, Sirius does use his Hasselblad with a prism finder. I'm with you though, Ralph, and prefer waist level finders. Waist level finders are one of the joys of shooting medium format.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

I have a P545N and with FA 75mm lens the AF systems performs quite well It no doubt doesn't do this as well as say a Nikon F5 but for the kind of scenes the F5 is much better at, any MF camera is not the best option. With the A lens which I believe the P645 uses the N on manual will focus accurately the A lens and also the FA lens on the manual setting. The green hexagonal light( a great device for those whose eyes are not what they were comes on when on manual setting and when I switch to the AF setting nothing changes with the focus I conclude that the N gives you the best of both worlds in terms both auto focus and manual focus

Yes the N is more expensive but other than that I am unclear why the N has any drawbacks compared to the non N 645

We can of course all be "burned" and buy a faulty camera when purchasing either of the these two or any other camera which has already been used

pentaxuser

This is blatantly incorrect to state that N body gives as good a manual focus experience as original 645. I have very good eyes (still) and original gives me fast snap in focus that I never have on the N. The N REQUIRES the split image or at least raster screen to have a chance for same performance, Since Pentax opted to make very few of these screens, IF one finds them they are outrageously expensive (recent AB82 find was calling for $275) so I cannot confirm if these screens are in fact as good as in original P645). And original screens are no fit for the N.

The focus confirmation does work, but is not even close to giving same level of manual focusing comfort, especially because it REQUIRES shutter button half press to activate and stay active, which is never needed with standard manual focusing.

 

[Sirius Glass]

'Blad. There is no other option. Just ask Sirius.

learn to love the waist-level finder because,eventually, You'll yearn for a Hasselblad.

Eventually, there really isn't.

You know it's true, Ralph.

Well, Sirius does use his Hasselblad with a prism finder. I'm with you though, Ralph, and prefer waist level finders. Waist level finders are one of the joys of shooting medium format.

Instead of buy and selling one camera after another, one should just skip directly to Hasselblad, not for the ego or status but because of the availability of service and equipment availability. It just takes longer between lens purchases and because one will keep the camera for a very long time the costs are amortized. The ergonomics and lighter weight than its competitors adds to the ease of use.

"Square is the perfect format." was the Hasselblad advertising slogan, but they could have also used the Packard slogan of "Ask the man that owns one."

 

[Alan Gales]

Thanks for your input. Several bloggers say the "N" model is the one to get - and prices reflect the greater popularity. So I would love to save some money on the earlier model. But your discussion of the battery compartment issue is troubling for me, because it may be difficult for me to be sure the contacts are OK before I buy one online. Two questions:
- Were the battery contacts improved in the "N" model, or do all Pentax 645 models suffer from this complaint?
- Is it possible to replace the OEM focussing screen on the N model to improve manual focusing?

I've owned all three models. Like I said earlier, I was an eBay seller of film gear. I have no idea how many original 645's I sold. I sold more of them and Cambo 4x5 monorails than any other cameras. It just happened that way. I never had problems with the battery contacts myself on any Pentax 645 model.

People prefer the "N" model over the original camera for several reasons. It's got autofocus, matrix metering, a brighter viewing screen, a shutter speed dial and it's newer. The only complaint I had about the original camera was I prefer a shutter speed dial over the shutter buttons. That's a personal preference. The view finder is a bit brighter on the later cameras but if you never shoot a later model and see the difference, you will probably be plenty satisfied with the original.

I shot the "Nll" myself. I bought it because the Seller mislabeled it on eBay as an "N" and I got it for the "N" price. The "Nll" has mirror lockup and a textured finish. You can talk to any owner and they will all tell you that the mirror in the original model and the "N" are so well dampened that you don't need mirror lock up. Pentax only added it because people thought they wanted it. The "N" is a prettier camera than the "Nll". The textured finish does help to keep down scratches so an "Nll" is prettier than a scratched up "N".

I mostly used autofocus but occasionally used the manual focus. I had no problem manual focussing myself. Of course all our eyes are a bit different and what works for one person may not work well for another.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Instead of buy and selling one camera after another, one should just skip directly to Hasselblad, not for the ego or status but because of the availability of service and equipment availability. It just takes longer between lens purchases and because one will keep the camera for a very long time the costs are amortized. The ergonomics and lighter weight than its competitors adds to the ease of use.

"Square is the perfect format." was the Hasselblad advertising slogan, but they could have also used the Packard slogan of "Ask the man that owns one."

Do you ever get tired of spreading this nonsense? There are numerous cameras of superior robustness to Hasselblad, same photographic capability and do not require a change if one of course wants to stick to it. There is nothing wrong with changing cameras, for some Hasselblad is the only way to go (and no, for it making their photography better). Problem is that many fall for the nonsense of it being somehow superior camera in what it does (record an image), and that sense it is a lie.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

...

"Square is the perfect format." was the Hasselblad advertising slogan, but they could have also used the Packard slogan of "Ask the man that owns one."

Hasselblad was lying about square being perfect (square was never a universal format by any stretch) as they did about having THE camera to own. Ask many owners of other makes and they will not have much different view of what what they own to what a Hasselblad owner has. The latter of course for taking photographs, as they have no chance on the social podium.

 

[baachitraka]

https://www.amazon.de/Sacred-Geometry-Philosophy-Practice-Imagination/dp/0500810303

 

[Sirius Glass]

Do you ever get tired of spreading this nonsense? There are numerous cameras of superior robustness to Hasselblad, same photographic capability and do not require a change if one of course wants to stick to it. There is nothing wrong with changing cameras, for some Hasselblad is the only way to go (and no, for it making their photography better). Problem is that many fall for the nonsense of it being somehow superior camera in what it does (record an image), and that sense it is a lie.

The only nonsense is your claims of nonsense.

Everything I said is factual.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Hasselblad was lying about square being perfect (square was never a universal format by any stretch) as they did about having THE camera to own. Ask many owners of other makes and they will not have much different view of what what they own to what a Hasselblad owner has. The latter of course for taking photographs, as they have no chance on the social podium.

You are the only one talking about a universal format. When are you going to stick to the facts for a change?

 

[winger]

FWIW (since I've only used a P645N and not an original or an NII), I pretty much only use the manual focus and have not had any problem focussing. I also haven't had any issues with the batteries or contacts.

 

[runswithsizzers]

If it makes any difference, as the person who started this thread, I would like to make it clear that Hasselblad is not on my list of prospective cameras. I am glad Hassleblad exists, and I am sure they have many happy users. But for my purposes, they are too expensive, too heavy; the end.

 

[pentaxuser]

FWIW (since I've only used a P645N and not an original or an NII), I pretty much only use the manual focus and have not had any problem focussing. I also haven't had any issues with the batteries or contacts.

Well we both appear to be,quote, "blatantly incorrect". We know from another's experience that the focus indicator does not, in his experience, render as accurate a focus but "blatantly incorrect " unfortunately sets a note of stridency, dogma and metaphorical B&W absolutism that I am at a loss to comprehend.

It takes all sorts to make Photrio what it is and in recent times more of the all sorts seem to believe that there is only one truth, namely their truth, which is not to be challenged

pentaxuser