I just saw some new wheels, today I noticed a old equipment utilized TSL2561 or TSL25715 for UV intensity monitoring which has a nominal 100M:1 dynamic range, and checked their updated light sensors. Their new TSL2572 Ambient Light Sensor features two built-in 16-bit ADCs, four programmable gain from 1x to 120x, with integration steps 0~256, results in 800M:1 dynamic range (roughly 29.5-bit), allows dark room to 60K lux sunlight operation——all above in a small DFN chip. With I2C digital interface, it requires almost no external components, yet it’s priced at only $1.91 on DigiKey. I think this would be a good choose for homemade projects.
Yeah, those little TAOS sensors are really neat. Have a look at the AMS product range as well; those are cool if you also want to do spectral analysis. It's become feasible to build a DIY photospectrometer at this point (albeit it with somewhat crude resolution).I just saw some new wheels, today I noticed a old equipment utilized TSL2561 or TSL25715 for UV intensity monitoring which has a nominal 100M:1 dynamic range, and checked their updated light sensors. Their new TSL2572 Ambient Light Sensor features two built-in 16-bit ADCs, four programmable gain from 1x to 120x, with integration steps 0~256, results in 800M:1 dynamic range (roughly 29.5-bit), allows dark room to 60K lux sunlight operation——all above in a small DFN chip. With I2C digital interface, it requires almost no external components, yet it’s priced at only $1.91 on DigiKey. I think this would be a good choose for homemade projects.
And esp. the former is actually pretty relevant, as was my contribution in #2 or so.At that point all of the work is entirely around the optical path and any sort of calibration (you often do need to calibrate the gain levels).
This thread is mostly a tl;dr for me at this point, but these sensors are absolutely the reason that 90% of the chatter on CDS vs SPD vs ADC choices is a complete waste of energy at this point. Just use one of these sensors, and call it a day. At that point all of the work is entirely around the optical path and any sort of calibration (you often do need to calibrate the gain levels).
For my own devices, the Printalyzer Densitometer uses the TSL2591, the new Printalyzer UV/VIS Densitometer uses the TSL2585, and the various metering instruments in the upcoming Printalyzer Enlarging Timer use the TSL2522.
(The TSL2585 has photopic and UV channels, while the TSL2522 just has photopic channels, but the rest of the sensor is otherwise very similar.)
Regarding spectrometers—to expand on that a bit—my personal DIY choice (everyone’s experience varies) would be a line scan sensor(or image sensor of smartphone), a blazed grating(if lower the standard, CD disk in another post), and CNC-machined/3D-printed mechanical positioning, much like the Hamamatsu C12880MA mini-spectrometer. Those single-digit channel sensor works but don't offer enough resolution.Have a look at the AMS product range as well; those are cool if you also want to do spectral analysis. It's become feasible to build a DIY photospectrometer at this point (albeit it with somewhat crude resolution).
Thanks for all the explanations. Previously you were basing from linear-linear space as power function. I'm sure you are correct in all you math. I found a manual for my meter so can now give the specs, but it doesn't change anything. My meter and CdS cell, in the simple way I use them is quite accurate measuring densities from 0 to 2.00 because the resistance changes by approx. -1/2 for each factor of 2 increase in light. This is due to the curve of my CdS cell, which is much steeper than yours. The non-linearity of mine at low readings due to temp coefficient and memory just happen to make it work better or more linearly. Mine automatically subtracts a value of about 50KOhms from the reading to correct for contact resistance. Specs claim 0.6% error at 2MOhms, 0.5% on the lower scales.To put my money where my mouth is, I've plotted the Log of the resistance readings from the multimeter vs the density values of pieces of film over the cds sensor. I've done this for two different light levels. Here's the data and the graph.
View attachment 417070
You can see the data is very linear, and well suited to a straight line function of the form Y = mX + b
I'm showing a least squares linear regression fit to both sets of data.
For any set stable light level, you only need two points to define the linear function. With that, you can calculate the density of another piece of film based on the resistance value from the multimeter.
In practical terms, you start with two pieces of film with known density. Place each piece of film over the cds sensor and measure the resistance value of the cds cell for each.
You need to make a calculation to determine the m and b parameters for your straight line function
m is the slope m = (Log(R2) - Log(R1))/(Density2-Density1)
b is the Y intercept b = Log(R1) - m*Density1
Now that you have m and b, you can calculate the density of another piece of film of unknown density. Just measure the resistance of the cds cell with that piece of film over the sensor.
The density of that piece of film will be = (Log(measured resistance) - b)/m
In other words, you need two resistance measurements to calibrate the system to get the m and b parameters. After that, you can find the density of any other unknown piece of film by just measuring the resistance and plugging it in the formula. It's easily set up in a simple Excel file, so you just need to enter the resistance values, and let Excel give you the result.
And believe me I've tried. In theory its a drop-in solution to my existing densitometer design to add color and multispectral capabilities. The problem is that I don't get to chose the response curves of the channels, making it almost impossible to actually make an ISO 5-3:2009 compliant Status A/M densitometer out of it. (which is why I've given up on this approach) Technically I could kludge it with some interpolation math, but you'd always find edge cases where that would fail to give desired results.Yeah, those little TAOS sensors are really neat. Have a look at the AMS product range as well; those are cool if you also want to do spectral analysis. It's become feasible to build a DIY photospectrometer at this point (albeit it with somewhat crude resolution).
If I ever take back up the idea of a spectrodensitometer, those Hamamatsu sensors are really the only viable choice I'm aware of. They're kinda expensive, but still cheaper than the alternatives. They're also a lot more complicated to integrate. Might prototype something with one someday, but I currently have enough on my plate that's likely higher priority.Regarding spectrometers—to expand on that a bit—my personal DIY choice (everyone’s experience varies) would be a line scan sensor(or image sensor of smartphone), a blazed grating(if lower the standard, CD disk in another post), and CNC-machined/3D-printed mechanical positioning, much like the Hamamatsu C12880MA mini-spectrometer. Those single-digit channel sensor works but don't offer enough resolution.
Thanks for all the explanations. Previously you were basing from linear-linear space as power function. I'm sure you are correct in all you math. I found a manual for my meter so can now give the specs, but it doesn't change anything. My meter and CdS cell, in the simple way I use them is quite accurate measuring densities from 0 to 2.00 because the resistance changes by approx. -1/2 for each factor of 2 increase in light. This is due to the curve of my CdS cell, which is much steeper than yours. The non-linearity of mine at low readings due to temp coefficient and memory just happen to make it work better or more linearly. Mine automatically subtracts a value of about 50KOhms from the reading to correct for contact resistance. Specs claim 0.6% error at 2MOhms, 0.5% on the lower scales.
And believe me I've tried. In theory its a drop-in solution to my existing densitometer design to add color and multispectral capabilities. The problem is that I don't get to chose the response curves of the channels, making it almost impossible to actually make an ISO 5-3:2009 compliant Status A/M densitometer out of it. (which is why I've given up on this approach) Technically I could kludge it with some interpolation math, but you'd always find edge cases where that would fail to give desired results.
If I ever take back up the idea of a spectrodensitometer, those Hamamatsu sensors are really the only viable choice I'm aware of. They're kinda expensive, but still cheaper than the alternatives. They're also a lot more complicated to integrate. Might prototype something with one someday, but I currently have enough on my plate that's likely higher priority.
The simplest approach, of course, is the photodiode+filter mechanism X-Rite uses for their older color densitometers. The only problem is that the filters themselves (for the color densitometry standards) are almost impossible to actually find these days (or only possible to find at exorbitant science-lab prices).
Do you have manual on how to use this meter?
Vezishu just posted this yesterday, so here you are, but this is for the fancier model that I had. Oops, over the 2 mb limit.No, it just had a dial on the back like any other exposure meter, except it really wasn't getting correct readings
No, it just had a dial on the back like any other exposure meter, except it really wasn't getting correct readings
Well, the AMS sensors I had in mind are the fancier multi-spectral sensors like the AS7343 or the newer TCS3448. These can do a lot more than just color temperature. They just can't match the specific curves for Status A/M in ISO 5-3:2009. (and the difference between Status A and Status M, for each color, is relatively small)Hamamatsu mini spectrometer is, after all, an spectrometer. AMS small color sensor performs well in measuring color temperature, but its limited too much in wavelength measurements.
Ironically, today narrowband filters with 50nm bandwidth at any wavelength are easier to find than color density filters. I noticed that your requirements are different from those XYZ sensor, which is quite troublesome. Schott SFK 100A, SFK 101B, and SFK 102A kits or AS73211 uses CIE 1931/DIN 5033, but.....
I wonder how to use it.
I may have confused sources, but when I looked up converting linear-linear to log-log plots I found this:No, I've never talked about power functions. It's plotting Log R vs Density. It's just like the D vs Log E curves we're all used to using. The X and Y scales are Logarithmic (Density is a log scale), but the plotted relationship is linear.
Very time consuming doing that accurately with my crummy meter. My meter drifts a lot, so I need to make a reading, then shut the meter down for many minutes before making another reading. I also use a dimmer switch to give a controlled range of 1:10 with my enlarger. I use my phone app to set the dimmer to an illumination that gives me 100, 71, 50, 35, 25, 18, 12, and 9 lux. At each of these, I measure the resistance of the CdS cell. The lux app does not give decimal values, so these are closest approximations of 1/2 f-stops. Much easier to plot 100, 50, 25, 10, but last illumination would be plus or minus 10%. My phone app lux meter is more accurate than a stand alone one that I used in the past. It's very repeatable at least. With a much brighter lamp, I have tested it over a broader range, but I measure my densities on my enlarger easel, so I care about those light levels around 1 to 100 luxI can't get anything useful by taking the ratio of the resistance values. Can you provide some actual measurement data, and show how you're doing the calculations.
I use the density of 0.00 which is lamp with no density. Then we have the unknown density. The ratio of the resistances of these two densities, one known, the other unknown.I must be interpreting what you're doing differently, since I can't see how you're able to achieve a result from a simple ratio, without knowing at least one density.
You could put those two densities together and read through both. That would give around 3.0 if I remember correctly. For most photography other than alt printing, need for density reading above 2.0 not very useful.I don't know how linear my cds cell is going to be for densities greater than 2, since I don't have any known film density samples greater than 2.17.
What you've done looks great. Good job. I'm pretty sure you're doings things correctly but I'm not. Why and how my sensor and meter give nearly linear measurements is beyond me based on theory. Happy coincidences rarely occur. My sensor is a very poor one, and I believe my meter is also not good. My readings should be log, but their linear, or very close to linear.The information I could find on the manufacturer's site we're useless in this regard. There's no curves supplied, so the only way to determine linearity is via experiment, which I've done.
Well, the AMS sensors I had in mind are the fancier multi-spectral sensors like the AS7343 or the newer TCS3448. These can do a lot more than just color temperature. They just can't match the specific curves for Status A/M in ISO 5-3:2009. (and the difference between Status A and Status M, for each color, is relatively small)
Here's some data I just read out from my setup. I used the four apertures my enlarger has that are factors of two. For readings I have the enlarger at f4.5, about half a stop more open than in the data. I take the log of the ratio of two densities, either 0 and an unknown in discussions here, or the two unknowns relative to each other and the zero density from the denser area when enlarging positives. Another point is I have not been subtracting out base plus fog for the most part unless mentioned.No, I've never talked about power functions. It's plotting Log R vs Density. It's just like the D vs Log E curves we're all used to using. The X and Y scales are Logarithmic (Density is a log scale), but the plotted relationship is linear.
I can't get anything useful by taking the ratio of the resistance values. Can you provide some actual measurement data, and show how you're doing the calculations.
Here's some data I just read out from my setup. I used the four apertures my enlarger has that are factors of two. For readings I have the enlarger at f4.5, about half a stop more open than in the data. I take the log of the ratio of two densities, either 0 and an unknown in discussions here, or the two unknowns relative to each other and the zero density from the denser area when enlarging positives. Another point is I have not been subtracting out base plus fog for the most part unless mentioned.
CdS cell data 0203226
Data taken quickly going up and down through fstops
F-stop phone lux CdS cell Ohms
5.6 61 58 56 15.73k 16.6k 16.6k 16.71k
8 30 28 30 30.85k 31.39k 31.04k 32.12k
11 15 14 15 54.38k 56.8k 54.7k 57.4k
16 6 6 6 122.5k 122.0k 124.6k 123.6k
data in each column was taken about five seconds apart. Each column was started where the previous left off and increasing or reducing f stop the opposit direction. Note that the last phone values at f16 are off a fair amount, so adjust the CdS cell data accordingly. Note the highest impedence readings appear most repeatable not sure.
Unable to install open office to put this data in spreadsheet, something I haven't done in many years.
Thanks for the response. They way I've been measuring density is to measure the resistance through the unknown, and divide that by the resistance of the zero density when we have no density, then take the log of that ratio. When measuring the ratio of two densities, we do not know what either one is, only their ratio. Also, this does not include any density common to both, since this cancels out. I need my high density reading (shadow on positive, highlight on negative) to determine enlarger exposure time, and the ratio of highest to lowest to determine development time to control contrast for ortho litho or Xray film exposure.Actually, it would make more sense to just measure the resistance with no film over the sensor at two different light levels. Then you can calculate the unknown film density directly. By doing it this way, you only take one restance measurement with the unknown piece of film. Any other unknown piece of film can also be evaluated by just replacing the Ru value in the same formula.
Du = 0.6 (Log(Ru/Rz)/Log(Rztwo/Rz))
Where:
Du = density of the unknown piece of film
Ru = cds cell resistance of the unknown piece of film, under the normal light
Rz = cds cell resistance with no film (zero density), under the normal light
Rztwo = cds cell resistance with no film (zero density), under the normal light reduced by two stops
Note: The 0.6 factor at the start is based on using a two stop light difference for the resistance measurements with no film. If you want to use a three stop light difference, then you'd use a 0.9 factor. A two stop difference should be sufficient if the characteristic curve is linear.
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