My 510-Pyro Adventures Have Begun!

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Andrew O'Neill

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I decided to give this developer a whirl. I've used just about every staining developer known to man... and woman... but this one. I've heard nothing but good things about it. It's economical. Last forever. Provides box speed, best for stand/semi-stand (ooh controversy!), pushing, blah blah blah... We shall see... 🤔
In this first instalment, I'll be mixing the stuff up. Sounds boring, but I still had fun doing it... mainly because I got to wear my respirator... and I sound like Darth Vader! 😄

 

pentaxuser

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Andrew, once you've done all those videos you will have covered just about all there is to cover on 510 so thanks. I take it that it is easy to break up those lumps in the pyrogallol when you need to?

pentaxuser
 
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Andrew O'Neill

Andrew O'Neill

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Andrew, once you've done all those videos you will have covered just about all there is to cover on 510 so thanks. I take it that it is easy to break up those lumps in the pyrogallol when you need to?

pentaxuser

Yes, the lumpies went in quite easily. I think it was that high heat... and I mean HIGH heat!... 80C! is why it went in smoothly, along with Phenidone. I always struggled getting Phenidone into Pyrocat-HD, even with Isopropyl Alcohol. Maybe the next time I mix up a batch of Pyrocat-HD, I'll try 80C... I can tell you this: I've learnt quite a bit about this 510-Pyro over the past couple of months that I look forward to sharing with all of you...
 

john_s

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This will be interesting Andrew. I'm not the only user who has reported quite low shadow speed with this developer used at recommended dilution. I have read that better shadow speed can be achieved with more dilute developer for longer, minimal agitation development (obviously a generous amount of very dilute developer would be recommended, especially as pyrogallol tends to oxidize in use).
I have always been wary of using high temperatures to dissolve ingredients on the basis that it might harm them. When I made this developer, instead of high temp I left it in the boot (trunk) of the car for a few days and the combination of some warmth and movement made it dissolve. Maybe, in retrospect, cooking it is part of the procedure.

As far as dissolving Phenidone, I use Dimezone-S instead in Pyrocat-HD and ID-68 and ID-78 and it dissolves relatively easily.
 
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Here's the video of Jay DeFehr making 510-Pyro:


Interestingly, unlike Andrew, Jay adds all the ingredients to TEA at room temperature, tops up with additional TEA and then heats the mixture till everything goes into solution. And like Andrew he doesn't wear gloves. :wink:
 
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Alan9940

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I mix 510 just like Jay, except that I heat the TEA in a microwave before putting the beaker on the mixer. Just speeds up the mixing process a bit. However, I wear gloves, respirator, and apron like I do when mixing just about any formula.

As for the speed loss...I've read this comment several times over the years and I'm left wondering if it's a film dependent thing. In my testing of 510 with Fomapan 100, I found that this formula gives me the same speed as any other developers I've used with this film.
 
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Andrew O'Neill

Andrew O'Neill

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Here's the video of Jay DeFehr making 510-Pyro:


Interestingly, unlike Andrew, Jay adds all the ingredients to TEA at room temperature, tops up with additional TEA and then heats the mixture till everything goes into solution. And like Andrew he doesn't wear gloves. :wink:


Yes, I usually do wear gloves but... don't my wife's oven mitts count? 😄 I don't have a magnetic stirrer heater thingy like Jay has, so I'll have to stick with making trips upstairs to the microwave. I might try sticking all ingredients in, topping up and then heating in the microwave for next time... and I'll wear me gloves! 😉
 

Alan9940

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I don't think I've ever seen anyone dump all the ingredients in at once. For every recipe that I have followed, it's always been one at a time, and not unless previous one has fully dissolved...

Same here. But, when I saw Jay dump everything at once, then mix, I tried it and haven't found it to be any problem. I do have a heated mixer thingy so I just set it up, turn it on, and come back when cooked.
 
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Andrew O'Neill

Andrew O'Neill

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Same here. But, when I saw Jay dump everything at once, then mix, I tried it and haven't found it to be any problem. I do have a heated mixer thingy so I just set it up, turn it on, and come back when cooked.

I might have to invest in one of those heater mixer thingy. Saw some on Amazon dot ca. I would say very affordable. If I get one, I'll finally look like a mad scientist... 🤪
 

john_s

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I don't think I've ever seen anyone dump all the ingredients in at once. For every recipe that I have followed, it's always been one at a time, and not unless previous one has fully dissolved...

The usual instructions about the sequence of dissolving components is explained, such as dissolve metol before adding sulphite other wise the metol won't do into solution, maybe phenidone dissolves more slowly unless the solution is alkaline and so forth. However with components that are readily soluble in an organic solvent maybe those considerations are not a constraint. Just a guess.

I'm wary of heating developing agents, especially ascorbic acid in case it causes changes/breakdown.
 

albada

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I'm wary of heating developing agents, especially ascorbic acid in case it causes changes/breakdown.

As an observation, 9-1/2 years ago I formulated and extensively tested a new kind of developer named Mocon (details are here) which contains much ascorbic acid dissolved in propylene glycol. I dissolved all chemicals, including ascorbic acid, at 75 degrees C, will no detectable harm.
 

craigclu

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I will be interested in your results, too. I liked much of what I found with the developer but fought the dead shadows issue. Skin tones and other midtones separated well for me, though and certain lighting situations and subjects were rendered nicely (and printed without excess manipulation). Perhaps I should have persevered more and was in communication (very pleasantly) with Jay at the time. About then, someone made some edgy comments about some of Jay's claims and it quickly deteriorated (poorly worded comments and thin skin do not compliment each other). I happened to recently have some old prints in my hand from those days so it's fresh in my mind regarding my results. Please keep us informed. PS - I used it with phenidone and also with Dimezone-S and recall the Dimezone (known as angel or pixie dust to some) going into suspension easier without such excess heat.

To our more learned chemists out there.... Is ascorbic acid less stable in heat when it is older/dated? I have a vague memory of that being mentioned in a discussion somewhere.
 
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Yes, I usually do wear gloves but... don't my wife's oven mitts count? 😄 I don't have a magnetic stirrer heater thingy like Jay has, so I'll have to stick with making trips upstairs to the microwave. I might try sticking all ingredients in, topping up and then heating in the microwave for next time... and I'll wear me gloves! 😉

Problem with videos such as yours and Jay's is you are very experienced and understand well the risks involved whereas the audience of these videos, especially the newly initiated enthusiasts, might not be aware of the risks. Not wearing gloves while mixing hot toxic chemicals sends a wrong message IMHO. I wish your video talked about the risks at least in subtitles. Sorry if anyone thinks I'm nitpicking and I'm happy to delete this post if I gave the impression of nitpicking.
 

john_s

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Problem with videos such as yours and Jay's is you are very experienced and understand well the risks involved whereas the audience of these videos, especially the newly initiated enthusiasts, might not be aware of the risks. Not wearing gloves while mixing hot toxic chemicals sends a wrong message IMHO. I wish your video talked about the risks at least in subtitles. Sorry if anyone thinks I'm nitpicking and I'm happy to delete this post if I gave the impression of nitpicking.

I don't think it's nitpicking. One has only to look at the safety instructions that come with simple power tools, appliances etc. The customers cover a huge range of experience and education and the manufacturer is well advised to cover the full range of possible dangers. (e.g. don't dry your wet baby in the microwave oven).

I am sure that there are readers here who don't have much experience and some warnings are worth issuing, even if quite briefly. Some warnings must be made firmly (e.g. sodium hydroxide, also heating solvents in a microwave)
 
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Andrew O'Neill

Andrew O'Neill

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I wrote a lengthy warning in the video description. I will include it in all future videos when Pyrogallol, Pyrocatechol, etc, are used. If someone could give it a quick read, and let me know if it is fine, or needs additions, please let me know! Thank you!

Here it is:

*****************************************WARNING*******************************************
Pyrogallol represents a serious health threat if its dust is inhaled, ingested, or if absorbed through the skin. Reasonable safety precautions (like Nitrile gloves, masks, etc.) can reduce or eliminate these risks. In the video, I am not wearing Nitrile gloves. I am very careful to not allow the Pyro to come in contact with my skin. I always wear a respirator and work in a well ventilated area...if you do not have a well ventilated space, then mix up the developer outside). When I am diluting the stock solution for film development, it's gloves on! Even when I am using conventional developers that incorporate the developing agent Hydroquinone, I wear Nitrile gloves.
Safe practices are best.
***********************************************************************************************
 
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Dennis S

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Just ordered some TEA to make some 510 Pyro. I'm really hooked on Pyro developers but I dislike the grain I am getting from PMK so all things I have read it should help. With the Orwo film I use I found Pyrocat HD leves a bunch of pinholes in the UN 54 film. PMK works great but like I mentioned the grain is a bit much. So hopefully the 510 Pyro may be the magic developer I have been searching for.
 

Dennis S

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I don't think I've ever seen anyone dump all the ingredients in at once. For every recipe that I have followed, it's always been one at a time, and not unless previous one has fully dissolved...

That looked strange to me after mixing Pyrocat HD and PMK over the years but for the first batch I will do it the way that worked for me adding and dissolving one chemical at a time. The mad scientist look can wait until later in my life. 🧑‍🔬
 
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dabsond

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I ordered some a while back and used it a couple of times with pretty good results. I am using a water stop bath as directed and Photographer's Formulary T4 fixer. My only issue is my fixer took a lot of the stain out during the fixing. I returned the fixer to the gallon of working solution. Will this affect the fixer in any way?
 

koraks

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my fixer took a lot of the stain out during the fixing

I'm very much looking forward to the next installments of Andrew's videos, one reason being that I'm quite skeptical that any commonly used fixer will be able to remove any of the pyro stain.

How did you test or observe that it happened the way you said it did?
 
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Andrew O'Neill

Andrew O'Neill

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I ordered some a while back and used it a couple of times with pretty good results. I am using a water stop bath as directed and Photographer's Formulary T4 fixer. My only issue is my fixer took a lot of the stain out during the fixing. I returned the fixer to the gallon of working solution. Will this affect the fixer in any way?

I'm not 100% sure, but I would think that the fixer should be okay. I've been using TF5 (testing it alongside acid rapid fixer), and I've been quite impressed with it... but I'll keep my results/impressions to myself for now 😉
 
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Andrew O'Neill

Andrew O'Neill

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That looked strange to me after mixing Pyrocat HD and PMK over the years but for the first batch I will do it the way that worked for me adding and dissolving one chemical at a time. The mad scientist look can wait until later in my life. 🧑‍🔬

I'm going to mix in and dissolve one at a time. It's the way I learned. By the way, the first staining developer I used was PMK. Wasn't impressed with it. The stain was overly green with HP5. But... I probably didn't spend enough time with it to make it work as I switched over to Pyrocat-HD. It worked perfectly from the get go. Still use it. Still like it. 510-Pyro has been interesting...
 

dabsond

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I'm very much looking forward to the next installments of Andrew's videos, one reason being that I'm quite skeptical that any commonly used fixer will be able to remove any of the pyro stain.

How did you test or observe that it happened the way you said it did?

It was by no means a scientific test, however the fixer went in clear and came out with a brown tint. Proof is in the printing. I haven't been able to get the negatives under the enlarger yet.
 
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