More Tri-X reversal failures - analysis please.

[mr.datsun]

no...THAT will be your undoing.

you need high contrast first deveopment--you're only developing 35mm and super 8...hardly any chemicals used at all and THAT'S too expensive? Then you can't afford to do it, sorry to say.

Every "smartcookie" macguyver genius out there thinks that the laws of physics will bend for them because they are so brilliant and they don'tWANT to have to spend money like normal "stupid" people.

good luck with that.

No, Super 8 takes 1L of developer for each film. You are suggesting that I use Dektol liquid at 1+1. That's a whole bottle of concentrated developer at £10 per bottle per film and 5 times the usual concentration normally used to develop Tri-X to neg state. I don't think it's unreasonable to question such an approach.

johnielvis, please leave the sarcastic comments out. Your constant patronising use of UPPER case was annoying enough. I'd simply rather you not answer if you cannot be polite.

 

[mr.datsun]

Kodak recommends using D-94 or D-94A as a first developer. This is a high contrast developer containing 9.1 ml of a solution of sodium thiocyanate. Since thiocyanate is twice as effective as thiosulfate and the solution is ~50% this corresponds to 9 g/l of sodium thiosulfate.

I would suggest using Dektol 1+1 as the first developer instead of the more dilute solution that you have been using.

Gerald. So, if I'm using anhydrous that makes my 5g per 330ml into approx 6g per 330ml or 18g/L. So double what Kodak use? I guess that was too much. But then I also tried 1/10 of that and got a washed out positive image that looked like it was 15% reduced in density.

With regards using Dektol at 1+1. But are you aware that I am using Dektol liquid (Polymax). This is diluted at 1+9 to make the equivalent of 1+2 of stock Dektol made from powder?

 

[mr.datsun]

OTOMH, I cannot remember the formula for D94, but I do know that Dektol is a paper developer. As such it is low solvent (Sulfite) and high in restrainer (Bromide) and these two may be your problem. Remember, what you are trying to do has been done by others with success.

PE

PE, thanks for the upport. I am finding it hard to work out how those others did it. Someone in Holland (Frank at super8.nl) has used Ilford multigrade, Dokumol and Dokulith. These are all paper developers - but are they different to Dektol?


Also, remember that mrred has made Dektol work with 5 or 6 B&W negative films (two were 400ASA) with very good success. I have used much the same method on Tri-X with poor results. This is why I start to wonder that Tri-X is resistant to this process.

 

[johnielvis]

No. I just did not say anything like 'it's not my process, it's the film'. I am saying that I have had no success getting it to work so maybe I should find something that does.

fair enough--somethign needs a change--very good--agreed there for sure.

Since you already have data for one type of film, why not changet the PROCESS instead of the film?

What you don't know is that the same process and chemicals will work for many films--therefore, if you can get the process to work for one, it will work for all--you are discouraged and grasping at straws with the wishful thinking that it's the film. It is not the film.

at lease TRY different, stronger dilutions...first witout the hypo then, when you get it working without hypo, then try adding hypo and see if you get speed or other improvements--but only after you start getting predictable, repeatable results. Get the bleaching step bugs out too--that may be a problem as well. Get each step robust and repeatable then start changing things one thing at a time.

change ONE variable at a time. Logic dictates you start with concentrating the developer--just try doubling your current concentration and change nothing else and then look at the results and see if a stronger concentration actually works..If it does work, then you'll have to figure on spending more money--or changing developers. This is the fun of coming up with your own process--it's going to take a long time even going at it every day. I know it's daunting and you want immediate results--but you at least have some success with some kind of image--USE that information to hone in on the best process for you.

It appears that you don't like to hear that the deveoper you're using may have to go faster than you originally estimated. Well, too bad--that's the breaks in this world--nobody's crystal ball works 100%. However, this may be better--you may end up using a different deveoper that comes out even cheeper than dektol, see. Just get it to work with dektol first, then you'll have experience and intuition for tweaking other deveopers. right now you don't know what is causing "the problem" and you're paniced that things are not working out as planned.

Relax--spend the money and tiime now...once you get something working THEN start to pinch the pennies and shave the minutes off the process.

This is why people "on a budget" fail all the time--they CAN do it for x amount of dollars IF they have experience--but they want it for x amount of dollars with NO experience.

You have to pay the piper..spend the money now and you WILL eventually succeed, but you can't succeed if you're going to let initial investment get in the way of experimenting.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The D94 contains Sodium Hydroxide which ups the pH quite a bit. And the HQ level? Wow! In fact, that formula looks to be in the range of D8 or D19 for activity and contrast. Dektol is anemic compared to that!

Thanks Jerry.

PE

 

[mr.datsun]

I always use raw chemical for preparations of solutions.
Reversible process b & w you should read densities of film.
At least fog density and high density.
From memory, the Kodak Double X (as reversal process b & w) fog was ~ 0.3 and maximum density was ~ 2.6.
If you look at the characteristic curve of KODAK TRI-X 7266 is not
as rich in density curve as a negative film.
Again, I think better results can be obtained on films with small fog.
I have not worked with KODAK TRI-X.

George

Do you mean that KODAK TRI-X 7266 is lower contrast than a Tri-X negative film? That doesn't make Super 8 Tri-X sound too good from my experiences with Tri-X 35mm.

 

[Photo Engineer]

As an added comment, TriX film is quite a normal film and should reverse just fine, and Kodak once sold a universal reversal kit with times for a wide variety of their films. So, one process can cover a multitude of films.

PE

 

[Oxleyroad]

I use D19 predominantly with added thiocyanate (or not depending).

 

[johnielvis]

d-19---now you're talkin'...THAT's the right kind of developer--the developer is DESIGNED for high contrast---which is what you want.

 

[mr.datsun]

johnielvis, thanks for the thoughtful response.

In this blog:

http://myfilmstuff.blogspot.ca/2011/04/my-bw-reversal-process.html

you can see that mrred has used powder Dektol at 1+1 and 1+2 on many films with great success (i have seen the results). The Dektol liquid (that i use) is already 5 times the strength of Dektol stock from powder, so I am suing it at 1+9 or at the stronger 1+5 to shorten dev times.

It's not that I don't want to hear it but rather that if Dektol will only work at 10 times the normal concentration used to successfully reverse develop other films, that maybe it is the wrong one for Tri-X. Then maybe I have nothing to lose except ruling dev concentration out.

I'm not panicked, just frustrated that I've wasted huge amounts of time trying to re-invent a wheel that someone has already made perfectly well.

 

[mr.datsun]

No one has commented on the fact that the daylight exposed end of the film strip is totally clear. What does that tell us?

 

[mr.datsun]

I use D19 predominantly with added thiocyanate (or not depending).

oxleyroad. Interesting. Do you have any information on exact method, please? Just in case I end up doing a u-turn on Dektol.

 

[mr.datsun]

I forgot that I found this last week. Tri-X Super 8 with Dektol at 1+2 for 5 minutes. Result on the page. Yellow but high contrast.

30g(!) of anhydrous hypo in 600ml dev.

http://www.repaire.net/forums/film-...-video/240084-devellopement-tri-x-dektol.html

j' ai utliser le dektol comme ça : Dektol 200ml : eau 400ml + 30g de Sodium Sulfite anhydre

dévellopement 5 min à 20°c
rincage 2 min
blanchiment 1min 30 (Solution A : 500ml eau, 32 ml Acide sulfurique Solution B : 500ml eau, 1,5g permanganate de potasse)
rincage 1 min
clarification 2min (105g of Sodium Sulfite pour 1l eau)
rincage 2 min
Expositon à 100 watt 2 min
2 ème dévellopement 5 min à 20°c
Rincage 1 min
Fixateur 2 min (1+8 superfix plus Tetenal)
Rincage 2 min
Bain eau distillée 2 min

 

[mr.datsun]

Another picture taken with Kodak Double X exposed to 800.
http://imageshack.us/f/17/negxxreversibilanredus.gif/

George

George, what process are you using, please?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Polymax (Dektol liquid) is a different formula from the standard Dektol print developer. My suggestion was for the regular, powdered Dektol. Alternatively you should be able buy Kodak D-19.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Having experimented in this area (my own Liquidol), I can say that Jerry is right. Polymax is a TOTALLY different developer formulation right from the ground up. Many formulas can give the same cold tones and rapid development, but they may not be the same with film. BTDT. Liquidol with film goes one way, and Dektol with film goes the other.

PE

 

[Oxleyroad]

Mr Datsun,

Now having read through all of this thread. A couple of things I have learnt. As johnielvis eludes, invest early and save in ther future.

I started with my B&W reversal using the Ilford data sheet and the old Ilford Manual back in 2007. Had no success at all. The emulsion lifted from the substrait(? spelling) an all of the films I tried such Ilford FP4, HP5, Foma 400 action, all in 35mm and 120. Cost a bit in film.

When the last motion picture lab in the southern hemiphere that processed B&W reversal closed in 2009, I resolved that I would learn to process B&W reversal myself.

Yes there is a lot of conflicting information out there and here on APUG.

I have been confident with processing B&W reversal for about a year now, but not before I had tried many, many different developer, time, temp and film combinations. I still do try new ones every so often. I have kept a log of everything so I now have a starting point for something new. Ihave tried much of what I have read. Some methods work for me, others did not. I use filtered tank water for everything in the darkroom.

My predominant films are Shanghai GP3 (120), Ilford HP4, HP5 and 3200 (35 and 120), Foma 100 and 400 (35, 120 & 4x5) Kodak Trix Rev (16), Foma R100 (16 and 35), Kodak Vision 2 and 3 colour neg (16 and 35), ORWO UN54 & N74 and ADOX Silvermax (35).

Developers I have had success with (I measure success as having a projectionable image that I would be proud to show, but the audience might not like) Kodak Dektol & D19 powders. Tetenal Dokumol and Eukobrom. Ilford PQ universal. I have also mixed several developers such as D94 from various sources. All have been tried with and without Hypo, and sodium thiocyanate. I want to try potassium thiocyanate in due course. Sometimes I use Hypo or thiocyanate sometimes I do not.

Bleaches I use only 1. Potassium Dichromate, simply because I just could not get the permanganate bleach to work. To not soften the emulsion too much so as to allow it to become easily damaged. I was able to get the permanganate bleach to work at 14°C. But as I figured I was doing something wrong, and I could switch to dichromate, I did. I have never looked back.

In my testing I shot several rolls of a particular film bracketed -2,-1,0,1,2 for the whole length. 120 a killer because I only got 3 test strips. I did not sub one format of film for another initally, but I do now as a starting point. I do always run a test strip before I run the actual roll of film, call it being paranoid, but nothing worse that to ruin a 100' roll of movie film because of something that could be prevented.

When you find something that works stick with it, but do not expect what works exactly for the Tri-X 35mm will be the same for the Tri-X Reversal super 8. I have different times for ORWO 35mm and ORWO 16mm, not much but enough.

Be persistant, patient and meticulous. What works in my environment may not work for you, and same for you.


As for the question what are my D19 details, I am work right now, but will note them for you later today when I get home.

 

[mr.datsun]

Gerald C Koch & PE. I'm gobsmacked. That might explain a lot. Thank-you.

As I have to start again, should I just go for the known high-contrast D19 or get the genuine Dektol ?



Kodak on their Cinema and TV site on D19:
'Provides higher than normal contrast and speed, higher than average graininess. High capacity, clean working, fast acting.

Seems to me the D19. I read 6-7mins and assume use stock strength.

 

[mr.datsun]

Mr Datsun,

Now having read through all of this thread. A couple of things I have learnt. As johnielvis eludes, invest early and save in ther future.

....

Be persistant, patient and meticulous. What works in my environment may not work for you, and same for you.


As for the question what are my D19 details, I am work right now, but will note them for you later today when I get home.

Oxleyroad,

Thank-you for your story. It's heartening to read.

Also thank-you for the advice and I completely agree about being methodical, meticulous and persistant – really, I have aimed to be so. Adjusting one variable at a time, gaining a success and then moving on to adjustment the next variable etc. But then I think that there's one thing that no amount of method or persistence would have helped with. A knowledge gap - using a wrong developer. Of course, eventually through much experimentation it may have become clear that it was wrong...

But there's sometimes another way. Something like natura facit saltus. A leap. A shortcut. Someone helpful who has the experience or knowledge puts you on a path that holds far stronger chance of experimental success – once method is re-applied. And a feeling of confidence (even a return of faith) comes with it.

So to hear that Kodak's 'liquid Dektol' is not Dektol is one such leap that will save me a lot of experimental fumbling in the dark. Likewise hearing about your successes with particular developers.

An idea of your methods with powdered Dektol and D19 would be very helpful and I'd be very grateful.

And so I will be moving directly to Super 8 tests next, having tonight finished building an 8mm reel for my Nikkor tank for use with short test film strips.

Regards

Mr. Datsun

 

[Oxleyroad]

Mr Datsun,

My times below are for D19 without any hypo or thiocyanate. Mixed from powder to make stock solution.

Adox Silvermax:- D19 diluted 1:1 at 25degC 4mins, all other chem baths 60-120 secs, fixer 3mins.
FomaR100 & ORWO UN54:- D19 diluted 1:2 at 22degC 6mins, all other chem baths 60-120secs, fixer 3mins.

Now for Dektol stock solution mixed from powder. No hypo or thiocyanate.

FomaR100:- Dektol diluted 1:1 at 22degC 3mins, all other chem baths 60-120 secs, fixer 3mins.
ORWO UN54:- Dektol diluted 1:1 at 22degC 2mins, all other chem baths 60-120 secs, fixer 3mins

First developer, bleach and clearing bath all had const. agitation.


Commenting on your test strip. I'd shorten the first development a tad, making the blacks darker, the clear areas should still be clear.

 

[mr.datsun]

My times below are for D19 without any hypo or thiocyanate. Mixed from powder to make stock solution.

Adox Silvermax:- D19 diluted 1:1 at 25degC 4mins, all other chem baths 60-120 secs, fixer 3mins.
FomaR100 & ORWO UN54:- D19 diluted 1:2 at 22degC 6mins, all other chem baths 60-120secs, fixer 3mins.

Now for Dektol stock solution mixed from powder. No hypo or thiocyanate.

FomaR100:- Dektol diluted 1:1 at 22degC 3mins, all other chem baths 60-120 secs, fixer 3mins.
ORWO UN54:- Dektol diluted 1:1 at 22degC 2mins, all other chem baths 60-120 secs, fixer 3mins

First developer, bleach and clearing bath all had const. agitation.


Commenting on your test strip. I'd shorten the first development a tad, making the blacks darker, the clear areas should still be clear.

Andy, thank-you - that's really a great help. I'm deciding which to use – D19 or Dektol powder. If D19 and Dektol are used at the same stock + 1 or +2 dilution then that certainly makes them fairly equal in terms of costs (which will be a minor factor – with the qty's used for cinefilm). But do you have an opinion on the relative image qualities of each, please?

Is there a reason why you work at 22 or 25degC? I'm more used to working at 20deg but could change if it had benefits other than convenience.

Regards

mr. datsun

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Some people have complained that the permanganate bleach causes softening of the emulsion. For this reason I would not go above 20C.

 

[georgegrosu]

I found the tests that I made last year with Aviaphot Pan 400 S PE 1.
The test strips exposed like Kodak Double X.
High densities I could not read properly and I did not past.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21121448@N06/8512759525/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21121448@N06/8512763153/in/photostream/lightbox/

George

 

[Oxleyroad]

Some people have complained that the permanganate bleach causes softening of the emulsion. For this reason I would not go above 20C.

I am one those who frequently had the emulsion soften with shanghai gp3 and Foma films, and found I needed to process at no higher than 14degC to avoid damage to the film.

Why do I process at higher temps? Convenience for me because 1. I use tank water and in the summer its temp is nominally 25degC, in the winter it is nominally 17degC. As my darkroom is not airconditioned & I rely on drawing air in from outside with the ventilation fans it can easily be 32degC in the darkroom on a summer day. So I typically run all my development at around 22degC sometimes a little higher or lower as it is easier to warm chemistry up, than to cool it down for extended periods. 2. I ultimately want to build a cine film processor capable of running 400ft lengths, so development times need to be short.

I am sure there are ways to adjust the development times to suit 20degC, and at least give you a starting point.

 

[mr.datsun]

I am one those who frequently had the emulsion soften with shanghai gp3 and Foma films, and found I needed to process at no higher than 14degC to avoid damage to the film.

Why do I process at higher temps? Convenience for me because 1. I use tank water and in the summer its temp is nominally 25degC, in the winter it is nominally 17degC. As my darkroom is not airconditioned & I rely on drawing air in from outside with the ventilation fans it can easily be 32degC in the darkroom on a summer day. So I typically run all my development at around 22degC sometimes a little higher or lower as it is easier to warm chemistry up, than to cool it down for extended periods. 2. I ultimately want to build a cine film processor capable of running 400ft lengths, so development times need to be short.

I am sure there are ways to adjust the development times to suit 20degC, and at least give you a starting point.

I guessed it would be your climate and I will adjust your times to 20degC. Thankfully, I haven't yet had a problem with the permanganate but have added hardener to the fix bath to cover my bases.

Good luck with the cine film processor. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would look forward to hearing more about it when you have built it.