More Tri-X reversal failures - analysis please.

[nworth]

Looks like my Tri-X reversal attempts. Although there is no reason it shouldn't work, Tri-X just doesn't seem to reverse well. Not only have I had failures, but generally the comments from others have been equally disappointing.

 

[StoneNYC]

Looks like my Tri-X reversal attempts. Although there is no reason it shouldn't work, Tri-X just doesn't seem to reverse well. Not only have I had failures, but generally the comments from others have been equally disappointing.

I'm disappointed too, and I'm not even invested in this, it's a lot of arguing with very little (but two) examples of success with a lot of "I know what I"m talking about" but no proof...

 

[Gerald C Koch]

One must be careful not to confuse Tri-X 7266 with the still film Tri-X (400TX) of the same name. All they have in common is the name "Tri-X." They are two very different films. Kodak 7266 is designed for reversal processing and the still film is not.

This thread deals with processing 7266. What needs to done is to start with 7266 that has been exposed correctly in camera. Failure to do so will lead to endless frustration. The reversal process depends on a number of factors in order to work. This variable must be eliminated. So there is no value in "practicing" with any other film. Posts that deal with any other film other than 7266 are really of no value and only confuse things.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Jerry;

Both films will reversal process with success. Remember that the old Kodak reversal kit was made for Super XX, Plus X and TriX. However, the reversal process is tricky as you indicate.

TriX 7266 has an antistatic backing to prevent charge building up in an MP camera, and it has provision for a sound track among other features.

PE

 

[johnielvis]

To all the dissappointed:

It seems that everybody who is wants a robust method that works the first time, every time. well, those do exist....the kodak kit for direct reversal of tmax....the formulary kit for tmax reversal....and that foma???? kit? what ever that foreign one is. maybe the kodak one is not still available new...but the formulary one for sure is out there.

anyways--these are out there and it seems that NObody wants to buy them. Everybody wants to do it all on their own because they consider it beneath them to pay money when they're smart enough to do it "on the cheap". Besides, other people are doing it with homebrew recipes and dammit them people don't seem so smart. so it's like humiliating to have to buy a kit--it's like an admission that some people out there ain't so dumb after all, and a total lack of hipster 'on the cheap' kool. pure ego.

Has anybody having problems doing reversal actually TRIED to use one of these kits FIRST? From what's been posted, it appears not.

here's a thought: if you use a robust, tested process, like kit, you can LEARN....then start substituting your own chemicals for the kit ones...one by one....next thing, you got your own process...then you can just TELL everybody you cooked it up yourself from scratch and it worked the first time...you'll get chicks then.

 

[StoneNYC]

To all the dissappointed:

It seems that everybody who is wants a robust method that works the first time, every time. well, those do exist....the kodak kit for direct reversal of tmax....the formulary kit for tmax reversal....and that foma???? kit? what ever that foreign one is. maybe the kodak one is not still available new...but the formulary one for sure is out there.

anyways--these are out there and it seems that NObody wants to buy them. Everybody wants to do it all on their own because they consider it beneath them to pay money when they're smart enough to do it "on the cheap". Besides, other people are doing it with homebrew recipes and dammit them people don't seem so smart. so it's like humiliating to have to buy a kit--it's like an admission that some people out there ain't so dumb after all, and a total lack of hipster 'on the cheap' kool. pure ego.

Has anybody having problems doing reversal actually TRIED to use one of these kits FIRST? From what's been posted, it appears not.

here's a thought: if you use a robust, tested process, like kit, you can LEARN....then start substituting your own chemicals for the kit ones...one by one....next thing, you got your own process...then you can just TELL everybody you cooked it up yourself from scratch and it worked the first time...you'll get chicks then.

Sounds like john's gots sum edumication ther... I reckon


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Photo Engineer]

To all the dissappointed:

It seems that everybody who is wants a robust method that works the first time, every time. well, those do exist....the kodak kit for direct reversal of tmax....the formulary kit for tmax reversal....and that foma???? kit? what ever that foreign one is. maybe the kodak one is not still available new...but the formulary one for sure is out there.

anyways--these are out there and it seems that NObody wants to buy them. Everybody wants to do it all on their own because they consider it beneath them to pay money when they're smart enough to do it "on the cheap". Besides, other people are doing it with homebrew recipes and dammit them people don't seem so smart. so it's like humiliating to have to buy a kit--it's like an admission that some people out there ain't so dumb after all, and a total lack of hipster 'on the cheap' kool. pure ego.

Has anybody having problems doing reversal actually TRIED to use one of these kits FIRST? From what's been posted, it appears not.

here's a thought: if you use a robust, tested process, like kit, you can LEARN....then start substituting your own chemicals for the kit ones...one by one....next thing, you got your own process...then you can just TELL everybody you cooked it up yourself from scratch and it worked the first time...you'll get chicks then.

And the current Kodak kit and the current Formulary kit is for Tmax. This is about TriX! There i a difference you know. Small but real!

The older kits were generic with times adjusted for the films.

PE

 

[mr.datsun]

anyways--these are out there and it seems that NObody wants to buy them. Everybody wants to do it all on their own because they consider it beneath them to pay money when they're smart enough to do it "on the cheap". Besides, other people are doing it with homebrew recipes and dammit them people don't seem so smart. so it's like humiliating to have to buy a kit--it's like an admission that some people out there ain't so dumb after all, and a total lack of hipster 'on the cheap' kool. pure ego.

Has anybody having problems doing reversal actually TRIED to use one of these kits FIRST? From what's been posted, it appears not.

John, the first thing I did was to buy the Foma kit. In fact, I only ever wanted to use a kit. When I spoke to one of the knowledgeable team at Silverprint in London about dev times, he strongly advised against using the dev part for Tri-X. He said that Tri-X is very low contrast compared with lower speed films when reverse processed and that it needed a very energetic developer. He suggested PQ which is where my tests started. Funnily enough two sets paper developer tests failed (with me) to return results with the contrast I sought. I'm not saying that the Foma will not work but I did start out with the desire to use a kit. And no other kit is available in the UK. I don't think you can say that 'nobody' wants to buy them based on a sample of 1 (after all, I think it was only me here trying to do it on Tri-X). And I do hope you're not aiming the 'hipster' slander at me - you simply have no idea on that score

But I'm not one of the great disappointed. I realised very quickly that I had to run plenty of tests for both practice and knowledge before I went into my real film projects, with a solid repeatable developing process under my belt. Practicing on Tri-X 35mm was only ever a means towards another end.

Now, it appears to me that a few people with no real interest in reverse developing Tri-X have jumped in here with an intention to criticise, for no good reason other than to gloat.

When I have good results on Tri-X Super 8 (with D19 or Dektol powder) I will return. I may even also later try it with 400TX 35mm again out of curiosity. Other than that it feels like this thread has run it's course. I certainly have learnt what I need to know, for now. Thank-you to all who contributed.

 

[johnielvis]

And the current Kodak kit and the current Formulary kit is for Tmax. This is about TriX! There i a difference you know. Small but real!

The older kits were generic with times adjusted for the films.

PE

This statement is VERY misleading. The kits will work for any films that lend themselves to reversal processing, including tri-x. It's surprising you'd make such a statement.

This is like saying that you can't develop tri-x using tmax developer and you can't develop tmax using hc110.

Also--if you substitute a different film for a certain process, it's best to keep the process the same--that is do NOT start off fiddling with the process times for different films, it is more appropriate to adjust the EXPOSURE of the film to the process. Each film has a different EI for reversal processing than it does for negatives in general. This is because when you're developing for negatives, you are using the "first" portion of the film curve--when it first starts to take off. However, when you are reversing it, you are, in general, using a portion of the film curve further "down the line"--so you generally need a bit MORE exposure to make the reversal work. Mr. DR5 has a table on his website of film speeds for DR5--this is an EXCELLENT starting point. One of the first adjustments people seem to have trouble doing is exposing somethign that SAYS "EI 400" on the box at a "reduced" EI like 200 or 100.....they seem to think the PROCESS is messed up if you can't get the "full" film speed. However, for reversal, "full speed" is usually somewhat less then the full negative speed in general. So people will trash a perfectly sound process because it seems to be defective if it can't get "full speed" out of the film.

ALSO===you CAN SAVE those reversals that are "too dark"--use ferricyanide bleach. It's even conceivable to make an end bleach step part of the reversal process--after 2nd developer, say, you then give it a bleach bath and final fix to clear up the highlights. Then this is like "developing by inspection" but only in reverse. This has the effect of "pushing" the film "after the fact". Or, it's like the hypo in the first developer but more controllable and done by insepection instead of blind.

NOTE--the bleach ALSO works for black and white fuji instant film---got an exposure too dark?...you can save it--put it in the bleach--it WORKS!

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ahhh, but I did not say it was impossible. I said that differences were small but real and the old kits had instructions for a variety of films. So please don't put words in my mouth. The old kits had a myriad of instructions for different films, but the new one has been "optimized" for T-max. That is all. This is my second post on this in this same thread.

I did not say it could not be done.

In fact, with adjustment, It could be used in this case, but we don't know what times to use for first and second development. Nor do we know the proper dilutions for the developers (if any). These were all spelled out in the old kit.

And, BTW, I searched for the kit I used to have and it is gone so IDK where the instructions are. I'll keep looking.

PE

 

[dr5chrome]

mostly true

What PE states is more or less factual. ALL reversal kits are not created equal - in my opinion, most are bad. The FOMA kit is for the FOMA-r film, thats it. The posted ILFORD recipes on the ILFORD site should be deleted. Consistent reversal is not as easy as some might think it to be.

dw

This statement is VERY misleading. The kits will work for any films that lend themselves to reversal processing, including tri-x. It's surprising you'd make such a statement.

This is like saying that you can't develop tri-x using tmax developer and you can't develop tmax using hc110.

Also--if you substitute a different film for a certain process, it's best to keep the process the same--that is do NOT start off fiddling with the process times for different films, it is more appropriate to adjust the EXPOSURE of the film to the process. Each film has a different EI for reversal processing than it does for negatives in general. This is because when you're developing for negatives, you are using the "first" portion of the film curve--when it first starts to take off. However, when you are reversing it, you are, in general, using a portion of the film curve further "down the line"--so you generally need a bit MORE exposure to make the reversal work. Mr. DR5 has a table on his website of film speeds for DR5--this is an EXCELLENT starting point. One of the first adjustments people seem to have trouble doing is exposing somethign that SAYS "EI 400" on the box at a "reduced" EI like 200 or 100.....they seem to think the PROCESS is messed up if you can't get the "full" film speed. However, for reversal, "full speed" is usually somewhat less then the full negative speed in general. So people will trash a perfectly sound process because it seems to be defective if it can't get "full speed" out of the film.

ALSO===you CAN SAVE those reversals that are "too dark"--use ferricyanide bleach. It's even conceivable to make an end bleach step part of the reversal process--after 2nd developer, say, you then give it a bleach bath and final fix to clear up the highlights. Then this is like "developing by inspection" but only in reverse. This has the effect of "pushing" the film "after the fact". Or, it's like the hypo in the first developer but more controllable and done by insepection instead of blind.

NOTE--the bleach ALSO works for black and white fuji instant film---got an exposure too dark?...you can save it--put it in the bleach--it WORKS!