Monobath Developers

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 1, 2010

Great first attempt. Follow Haist's recommendations to reduce contrast, and I bet you get better sharpness as well.

keithwms · Feb 2, 2010

David, did you try the other monobath developers in Haist's book, the sodium thiosulfate (slightly different from fx6a, same ingredients) and mercaptoacetic ones in chp. 4? His acutance plot on pg. 79 looks quite interesting. Looks like the thio gives a 2x increase in acutance, as he defines it. Must be a very substantial edge effect.

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 2, 2010

The mercapto acid ingredients were harder to obtain, so I was curious about those, but didn't try them, and the thiosulfate formula in ch. 4 didn't seem like too different a starting point from FX6a, since I was tweaking it anyway, so I didn't bother with it. I'd be interested in knowing how the mercaptoacetic acid formula works, if you can get the stuff to make it.

Where did you find glutaraldehyde for MM1?

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2010

The Formulary sells glutaraldehyde David.

PE

keithwms · Feb 2, 2010

Yep I got everything including the gluta from the formulary. Well, the lye I got from the hardware store.... I might switch to lab grade lye next time though. It looked pure but one never knows.

Formulary! Why don't you have a general monobath kit, including all the ingredients for the common ones? Took me a while to put it all together.

I can get the mercapto stuff easily, those compounds turn out to be fairly common in my line of research. Let me suggest looking at pierce bio or sigma. I can schniffel around and see what I find in the lab.

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 2, 2010

Thanks. I don't think they had it when I was working on monobaths.

What does it do in MM1? I couldn't find an explanation in a quick skim.

keithwms · Feb 2, 2010

Offhand I don't know, let me look in Haist and see. Obviously it adds viscosity, and perhaps therefore has some preserving effect (preventing oxidation of pheni?).

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2010

Glutaraldehyde is not known to increase viscosity, therefore something else is going on. GA is a hardener used in prehardening baths. It reacts in a manner similar to formalin and glyoxal. The fumes are quite toxic. Take care.

PE

Philip Jackson · Feb 2, 2010

Glutaraldehyde is definitely intended to function in MM1 as a hardener. If I recall correctly, at the time he was formulating MM1, Haist found that films were less hard than they used to be. Perhaps with only 4g sodium hydroxide/litre, emulsion softening with modern films might not be such a problem, and you could get away with omitting it. Avoid the nasties when you don't need them!

Glyoxal is supposedly slightly less toxic than formalin, but the danger then might be instead of treating it with the respect it deserves, you could be lulled into a false sense of security by the slightly less pungent fumes.

Philip Jackson

Philip Jackson · Feb 3, 2010

A cysteine monobath

Haists Monobath Manual doesnt include any discussion of cysteine fixation, however there is an interesting patent (4,205,124 / 1980) by Harvey A. Hodes, who seems to have been working for the US Air Force (probably alongside Marilyn Levy, of POTA fame, at Fort Monmouth, NJ). Hodes formulated a low gamma developer consisting of:

Phenidone 1 gram
Hydroquinone - 2 grams
Sodium carbonate - 10 grams
Sodium sulfite - 30 grams
pH 10.2 to 10.4

Hodes claims this formulation is oxidatively stable, even in a Versamat processor, after five days exposure to air, or after storage for 16 hours at 160F. He also formulated two monobath variations. The first, designated A, has an additional 50 grams of sodium thiosulfate and 4 grams of polyetheleyne oxide, which functions primarily as a development accelerator and secondarily as a protective colloid to preferentially attract sludge. Hodes B monobath formulation uses 10 grams of cysteine hydrochloride instead of thiosulfate; the quantity of sodium carbonate is also increased to overcome the acidity of the cysteine hydrochloride:

Phenidone 1 gram
Hydroquinone - 2 grams
Sodium carbonate - 40 grams
Sodium sulfite - 30 grams
Cysteine hydrochloride 10 grams

I haven't tried this but it sounds interesting. Cysteine should be innocuous compared to some of the other similar sulphur related fixing compounds (perhaps a benefit compared to the mercaptoacetic acid formula mentioned by David Goldfarb at #128 above?).

Philip Jackson

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 3, 2010

Thanks for adding another one to the list.

So if one wants to try some of these formulas that use chemicals that aren't normally stocked at places like the Formulary and Artcraft, how does a civilian go about ordering from Sigma-Aldrich or one of the big suppliers? When I've looked, it's seemed like they are more oriented toward larger orders for commercial labs or schools that use purchase orders, have accounts, and such.

Photo Engineer · Feb 3, 2010

Be careful with Cysteine HCl. There are reports that it can cause reticulation!

The Formulary has Cysteine HCl. I have found that they have a lot of chemicals that are not on their list. Just call and ask Sherry!

PE

Ian Grant · Feb 4, 2010

David A. Goldfarb said:
So if one wants to try some of these formulas that use chemicals that aren't normally stocked at places like the Formulary and Artcraft, how does a civilian go about ordering from Sigma-Aldrich or one of the big suppliers? When I've looked, it's seemed like they are more oriented toward larger orders for commercial labs or schools that use purchase orders, have accounts, and such.

Any good supplier should be able to get the chemicals from Sigma-Aldrich for you, my suppliers in the UK could get me obscure chemicals from a variety of other companies.

But it's not the volumes that are usually the issue rather that various agencies require that chemical companies sell via official purchase orders to companies, often wanting to know what the chemicals are to be used for. Surprisingly it was the police that asked my supplier not to sell direct to the public, about 10 years ago..

For some reason they don't bother with suppliers like the Formulary, Artcraft etc selling to the public, and in other fields you can walk into a jewellery suppliers (in the UK) and buy 5kg of Potassium Cyanide (used for cleaning castings) with no paper work, & just pay cash.

Ian

Philip Jackson · Feb 4, 2010

I found some cysteine hydrochloride at a health food store. It wasn't cheap - $25 Australian for 100g - but factoring in shipping, may be cheaper than Sigma Aldrich or Photographers Formulary, at least for a small quantity, and presuming the quality isn't significantly different. Apparently it's sold as a dietary supplement, though I'm not endorsing it for any non-photographic purpose!

As an aside, since cysteine is sometimes made commercially from human hair, there are suggestions of cannibalism in its consumption, though I can't see why swallowing a hair on a piece of lettuce should make you a carnivore, much less a cannibal. -Philip

Ray Rogers · Feb 4, 2010

Summer Cannibals... but some are not.

Philip Jackson said:
I can't see why swallowing a hair on a piece of lettuce should make you a carnivore, much less a cannibal. -Philip

Even Vegetarians love those Bedroom Carnivores!

...
The cauldron was a-bubbling
the flesh was lean
and the women moved forward
like piranhas in a stream
they spread themselves before me
an offering so sweet
and they beckoned and they beckoned
come on darling eat
...
They circled around me
natives in a ring
and I saw their souls a-withering
like snakes in chains
and they wrapped themselves around me
ummm what a treat
and they rattled their tales hissin'
come on let's eat !

From Patti Smith "Summer Cannibals"

Mike1234 · Feb 4, 2010

Ray... you're a dirty old man. I respect that.

Ray Rogers · Feb 5, 2010

Mike1234 said:
Ray... you're a dirty old man. I respect that.

Thanks!
At heart, I'm actually more the "Bruce Wayne" type.

Mike1234 · Feb 5, 2010

Well then, Batman Ray, being the altruistic philanthropist you are... I could use a few million dollars so I can retire. PayPal okay??

Ray Rogers · Feb 5, 2010

Mike1234 said:
Well then, Batman Ray, being the altruistic philanthropist you are... I could use a few million dollars so I can retire. PayPal okay??

Hummm.
Good to know you are not the greedy type!
There might be a small transaction fee you will need to take care of first - you don't mind do you?....

I was deeply inspired by "The Millionaire" (see below). I was referring however, to Mr. Wayne's genteel nature... characterized by consideration and courtesy... a well-mannered and considerate man with high standards of proper behavior... free from vulgarity or rudeness.

Unfortunately, in my case, Fate and Financial Wealth seems to be just as clueless as their sister Justice!

Lets hope they find us both!

Ray

From Wikipedia:
"The Millionaire" is a television drama anthology series that aired on CBS from January 19, 1955 to June 8, 1960.... The series explored the ways unexpected wealth changed life for better or for worse... The show centered around the stories of unknown people who were given, seemingly out of nowhere, one million dollars from a benefactor who insisted they [never] know him

He was John Beresford Tipton, sketched as a semi-retired industrialist, and shown obscured by one of his high-backed leather chairs. Viewers saw only his right arm as he reached for a cashier's check for one million dollars, each week, and handed it to his executive secretary... Michael Anthony. It was Anthony's job to travel and deliver that check to its intended recipient, staying only long enough to present the gift and then, customarily, leaving the recipient's life forever.

I'm still waiting....

Photo Engineer · Feb 5, 2010

Ahhh, yes, loved that show.

Of course, I never have forgotten Col. Humphrey J. Flack and his associate Garvey. If you can see one of those episodes you will see that it is a fitting insertion here.

PE

holmburgers · Feb 4, 2011

Wow, almost a year to the day... coincidence I swear!

http://new55project.blogspot.com/2011/01/tmy-in-reagent-iii.html
and
http://new55project.blogspot.com/2010/01/donal-qualls-successful-monobath.html

This seems like such a fascinating thing, the monobath. Just wanted to see if I could reinvigorate some discussion and share.

removed account4 · Feb 4, 2011

PE you mentioned early in this tread that d76 can develop AND fix certain films
and you later mentioned a chloride emulsion.
are there an chloride emulsions that are currently being made ?

thanks !

john

Photo Engineer · Feb 4, 2011

Yes, John, some products do contain Chloride emulsions or near pure Chlorides. Azo paper was one of them and Lodima is of a similar type.

It is also possible to use them in film emulsions such as Eastman Color Print film.

PE

removed account4 · Feb 4, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
Yes, John, some products do contain Chloride emulsions or near pure Chlorides. Azo paper was one of them and Lodima is of a similar type.

It is also possible to use them in film emulsions such as Eastman Color Print film.

PE

so if i used d76 with some azo paper, that i have
i could skip the fixing step ?

thanks !
john

Photo Engineer · Feb 4, 2011

Actually, no, what you get is slower speed, sharper toe, higher contrast and then it fixes slowly. The effect is due to the sulfite dissolving the silver halide.

I do not suggest this method, but merely mention that this takes place.

PE

Monobath Developers

David A. Goldfarb

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Ian Grant

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Ray Rogers

Mike1234

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holmburgers

removed account4

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