Modern densitometer choices

dkonigs · Dec 8, 2019

I recently bought an X-Rite 810TR densitometer off eBay, and its been a very convenient tool to have around the darkroom. It can do both reflection and transmission, and can read color channel density (R/G/B) as well as "visual" density for B&W.
So far I've used it to help calibrate my RH Analyser enlarger meter and to inspect C-41 Process Control Strips (which I run to sanity-check my C-41 chemicals/processes). I may find more uses for it in the future. Regardless, I love having this piece of equipment that saves me from having to "eyeball it" on any task that involves comparing/verifying the density of a piece of film or paper.

Unfortunately, I'm quite concerned about the future-proofing of this piece of equipment. Replacement parts are hard to find (and/or extremely expensive if you do). Also, I don't think X-Rite even sells the transmission calibration step wedge for it anymore. (The one I have, that came with the machine, is very old and probably due for replacement.) I also sometimes question the absolute reliability of its readings, but it is probably good enough for now.

What I'd like to know, is whether there is any good "modern" (preferably LED-based) alternative that provides the basic capabilities of the 810TR. That means transmission and reflection, and RGB readings. Most densitometers I see out there right now are either single-channel (B&W), or color (and costing a fortune) with enough fancy features that I honestly cannot tell whether or not they'd do what I want.

I know that in our community, Heiland does make a densitometer that has many different options. But what I do not know, is whether or not it can be used (with the multi-color transmission light option) to provide RGB readings to evaluate those C-41 strips.

AgX · Dec 8, 2019

The Heiland option #8 yields RGB illumination.

Luis-F-S · Dec 8, 2019

Tough choice. I would suggest you look at the Ihara line. I typically use an X-rite 301 which is a B&W densitometer and still fixable, and an X-rite 361T for UV light. The Ihara line I've found to be accurate and reproducible. I would contact them and see what their suggestions are. They're also "reasonable" to fix compared to X-rite prices. Call Keith at 661-257-5772. He's very knowledgeable and helpful.

dkonigs · Dec 8, 2019

AgX said:
The Heiland option #8 yields RGB illumination.

That much I know. What I don't know, is whether it'll yield the same results as a color densitometer (that uses a white light) when I cycle through the different illumination colors. They provide so little information on this option on their web page, I don't even know how it works or is controlled.

dkonigs · Dec 8, 2019

Luis-F-S said:
Tough choice. I would suggest you look at the Ihara line. I typically use an X-rite 301 which is a B&W densitometer and still fixable, and an X-rite 318 for UV light. The Ihara line I've found to be accurate and reproducible. I would contact them and see what their suggestions are. They're also "reasonable" to fix compared to X-rite prices. Call Keith at 661-257-5772. He's very knowledgeable and helpful.

Interesting suggestion, as I've never heard of that brand before. Unfortunately, their transmission densitometers appear to be B&W only. (They only do color for the reflection densitometers.)

AgX · Dec 8, 2019

dkonigs said:
That much I know. What I don't know, is whether it'll yield the same results as a color densitometer (that uses a white light) when I cycle through the different illumination colors. They provide so little information on this option on their web page, I don't even know how it works or is controlled.

As long as the spectral band of output is the same, it does not matter whether one uses white light and filters or coloured light from the start. But you are right, Heiland do not give details. However such densitomerter only makes sense, if it is based on common routine. In this case its spectral output.
You could skip that option and use your own separation filters.

RalphLambrecht · Dec 8, 2019

dkonigs said:
I recently bought an X-Rite 810TR densitometer off eBay, and its been a very convenient tool to have around the darkroom. It can do both reflection and transmission, and can read color channel density (R/G/B) as well as "visual" density for B&W.
So far I've used it to help calibrate my RH Analyser enlarger meter and to inspect C-41 Process Control Strips (which I run to sanity-check my C-41 chemicals/processes). I may find more uses for it in the future. Regardless, I love having this piece of equipment that saves me from having to "eyeball it" on any task that involves comparing/verifying the density of a piece of film or paper.

Unfortunately, I'm quite concerned about the future-proofing of this piece of equipment. Replacement parts are hard to find (and/or extremely expensive if you do). Also, I don't think X-Rite even sells the transmission calibration step wedge for it anymore. (The one I have, that came with the machine, is very old and probably due for replacement.) I also sometimes question the absolute reliability of its readings, but it is probably good enough for now.

What I'd like to know, is whether there is any good "modern" (preferably LED-based) alternative that provides the basic capabilities of the 810TR. That means transmission and reflection, and RGB readings. Most densitometers I see out there right now are either single-channel (B&W), or color (and costing a fortune) with enough fancy features that I honestly cannot tell whether or not they'd do what I want.

I know that in our community, Heiland does make a densitometer that has many different options. But what I do not know, is whether or not it can be used (with the multi-color transmission light option) to provide RGB readings to evaluate those C-41 strips.

I can highly recommend the densitometer choices from Heiland Electronics in Wetzlar Germany. I own one myself and my photo club owns one, which is 20+ years old; still functions perfectly!

ic-racer · Dec 8, 2019

I use Tobias Sensitometers and Densitometers. They are located about 100 miles from me and still supply some parts for my older models. I did just check the web page and see, however, that they don't make the color densitometers anymore.

I have two of the color Densitometers and the service manual. One had some drift but I fixed that by cleaning the Molex connectors to the power supply.

dkonigs · Dec 10, 2019

So what still worries me in all this, is that I simply cannot figure out which (at any price) modern currently-produced/supported product provides the same capabilities at the X-Rite 810TR. Meanwhile, I can find plenty of long-discontinued (and often unsupported) products from all the above-mentioned brands that would work.

Also, as X-Rite no longer lists the appropriate transmission calibration step wedge for the 810TR on their website, does anyone know where I can buy a new equivalent? It needs to have R/G/B density numbers for the patches, and most of the ones I can find online do not (or its unclear whether or not they do).

maxwellmakoski · Dec 11, 2019

I too had trouble finding a proper calibration step wedge for the xrite. I bought a stouffer 5 step check wedge and a tiffen q-13 (kodak q-13) color reflection plaque, sent the transmission wedge to my local cinema print company and the reflection to a very good print lab and had them "calibrate" them for me against their readings. Im not sure where you can still source proper lab certified tranmission wedges (or reflection for that matter) Ill have to ask some friends, will update if I come across anything.

glbeas · Dec 11, 2019

I have an Xrite 311 transmission densitometer that stopped working, everything lights up, just doesnt read any densities. Anybody know of a tech who can repair it for a reasonable cost? Xrite no longer supports it, no longer even has any information on it to troubleshoot it.

Chan Tran · Dec 11, 2019

X-Rite seems to stop making all transmission densitometer. For reflection they make spectrophotometer which can read out in densities.

Bill Burk · Dec 12, 2019

I saw some photos on the auction site eBay when I searched for Densitometer... at least two or three of them had the RGB notations written on the transmission control strips that are included. A little bit steep for my taste (around $600 to $700) but it seems you can get what you are looking for... It'd likely be expired though. One even had a spare bulb.

Why not call X-Rite support, they might be able to get you a control strip and a light bulb. They do have the world's best customer support.

Remember when I used to say I work for Kodak so the opinions and positions I take are my own and not necessarily those of EKC... well.... you'll never guess who bought the division I work for. Yup, the parent company of X-Rite owns the company I work for now.

bernard_L · Dec 12, 2019

dkonigs said:
Also, as X-Rite no longer lists the appropriate transmission calibration step wedge for the 810TR on their website, does anyone know where I can buy a new equivalent? It needs to have R/G/B density numbers for the patches, and most of the ones I can find online do not (or its unclear whether or not they do).

Buy a Stouffer step wedge and have it calibrated one for all by someone with a known good RGB densitometer.
The firmware on my Macbeth TR1224 seems to assume that the calibration spots (transmission or reflection) have equal densities in all colors.K Which is probably not a bad approximation for a B/W silver negative?

dkonigs · Dec 12, 2019

Bill Burk said:
I saw some photos on the auction site eBay when I searched for Densitometer... at least two or three of them had the RGB notations written on the transmission control strips that are included. A little bit steep for my taste (around $600 to $700) but it seems you can get what you are looking for... It'd likely be expired though. One even had a spare bulb.

Why not call X-Rite support, they might be able to get you a control strip and a light bulb. They do have the world's best customer support.

Remember when I used to say I work for Kodak so the opinions and positions I take are my own and not necessarily those of EKC... well.... you'll never guess who bought the division I work for. Yup, the parent company of X-Rite owns the company I work for now.

Um, I didn't say there was anything wrong with the densitometer I currently have. Assuming it doesn't break, doesn't need replacement parts, and I'm okay using a decades-old transmission step wedge to calibrate it (because they don't sell new ones anymore). The problem is that I can't figure out what new/supported products actually exist, that'll provide the same functionality.

dkonigs · Dec 12, 2019

bernard_L said:
Buy a Stouffer step wedge and have it calibrated one for all by someone with a known good RGB densitometer.
The firmware on my Macbeth TR1224 seems to assume that the calibration spots (transmission or reflection) have equal densities in all colors.K Which is probably not a bad approximation for a B/W silver negative?

If I knew how to get an appropriately calibrated step wedge, then I'd seriously consider doing that. The problem is that I don't. (And anyone capable of providing one would likely also know the answer to my original question about what currently-supported modern products can provide this functionality.)

If I only cared about B&W, then I'd just buy the Heiland TRD-2 and be done with it.

lantau · Dec 12, 2019

Since you guys are in the US, can't you order a calibrated step wedge from Stouffer directly?

Nodda Duma · Dec 12, 2019

lantau said:
Since you guys are in the US, can't you order a calibrated step wedge from Stouffer directly?

Yep. I bought a calibrated step wedge from them last year to characterize my dry plates. They support RGB calibration too, I believe. OP just needs to root around in their website.

Kino · Dec 12, 2019

The calibrated wedge is just above or below the uncalibrated wedge in the price sheet.

Look for the highest priced wedge in the particular format you want and then you have it...

dkonigs · Dec 12, 2019

Nodda Duma said:
Yep. I bought a calibrated step wedge from them last year to characterize my dry plates. They support RGB calibration too, I believe. OP just needs to root around in their website.

The problem is that they make absolutely no mention of what calibration values they give you with their calibrated step wedges, and I haven't seen anyone actually provide conclusive evidence if what they do provide. (And their website looks like a mediocre effort from 1996.) The only way to know for sure will be to take a picture of my ancient X-Rite transmission wedge, and directly ask them if they provide similar info for their T5100C product.

Bill Burk · Dec 12, 2019

Here’s what Stouffer gives you. No RGB.
You could “always” send your current scale to “anyone” with a calibrated densitometer and they can write down some “new” numbers for you (or confirm the current values are still the same).

Nodda Duma · Dec 12, 2019

dkonigs said:
The problem is that they make absolutely no mention of what calibration values they give you with their calibrated step wedges, and I haven't seen anyone actually provide conclusive evidence if what they do provide. (And their website looks like a mediocre effort from 1996.) The only way to know for sure will be to take a picture of my ancient X-Rite transmission wedge, and directly ask them if they provide similar info for their T5100C product.

You might have missed that I was talking about the Stouffer step wedges..per the post I replied to.

It’s not a problem. You just haven’t seen it with your own eyes.

They provide you the step wedge in an envelope with the calibration values provided on the envelope. Obviously the values are unique to that step wedge.

I’m not sure what the look of the website has to do with the quality of the product?

Mainecoonmaniac · Dec 12, 2019

lantau said:
Since you guys are in the US, can't you order a calibrated step wedge from Stouffer directly?

Yes. I ordered some early this year. I ordered the hand-read step wedges.

http://www.stouffer.net/Photo.htm

dkonigs · Dec 12, 2019

Nodda Duma said:
You might have missed that I was talking about the Stouffer step wedges..per the post I replied to.

It’s not a problem. You just haven’t seen it with your own eyes.

They provide you the step wedge in an envelope with the calibration values provided on the envelope. Obviously the values are unique to that step wedge.

I’m not sure what the look of the website has to do with the quality of the product?

I didn't miss what you replied to. Its just that their website provides so little information on what they actually provide with the calibrated step wedges. I just sent them an Email asking for more information (specifically about the RGB stuff), so I'll report back what I learn.

Bill Burk · Dec 12, 2019

The Stouffer calibrated scale as is won’t have RGB readings that dkonigs wants.

They aren’t color patches, just different readings a properly-calibrated densitometer should give using the respective color channels. Anyone with a traceable-to-NIST calibrated densitometer can read the test strip, and write values on the envelope.

Stouffer maintains such a densitometer for the purpose. If you call and ask them they may give you a custom step wedge with the readings you are looking for. I called them once and got a custom strip they had “on hand” that I wanted for my EG&G, plus I bought several other strips and scales to give to my friends...

Modern densitometer choices

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