Mocon Concentrate - Update after one year in the freezer

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albada

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I have some interesting results below.

You might remember that a year ago, with much help from PE and others, I created an XTOL-quality concentrate which I called "Mocon". The article for it is here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) And then I vanished for a year, because I invented a better way of designing software, and ended up writing a book about it ("The IDAR Method") and presenting it at conferences.

I've kept a bottle of Mocon in the freezer over the year. This weekend, I used it to develop two rolls -- Tri-X and T-Max 400. Also, for the last 1.5 years, I've kept partly-full bottles of the similar D316 in the refrigerator and freezer, opening both for a couple of minutes once a month to simulate occasional usage. Here are the results:

* Mocon: Concentrate shows no evidence of yellowing or precipitation/crystallization, and the rolls came out perfect! Dense leaders and perfect negatives.

* D316: Both bottles (refrigerated and frozen) show no evidence of yellowing. However, a third bottle that's been frozen the whole time has a little crystallization on the bottom (Mocon had none).

In comparison, glass bottles of similar concentrates that were kept at room-temperature gradually turned yellow and then red over a period of months, even when they had not been opened. From this, I conclude that the yellowing is not caused by aerial oxidation. Also, when these bottles were opened, I heard a puff-sound of gas being released, and they started bubbling a little. When shaken, they bubbled furiously, as if they were carbonated. Clearly, at room-temperature, one or more reactions occur over a period of months which produce a gas and the yellowing. It's interesting that refrigeration appears stop this reaction and not merely slow it down.

My conclusion: Based on its potency and observed rate of yellowing (none), I'd say Mocon will last years when kept frozen. I recommend it for those doing occasional shooting who want XTOL-quality.

Mark Overton
 

Trask

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Thank you, Mark, for thinking of us out here in APUG-land who are interested to learn "the rest of the story" (as Paul Harvey used to say). I'm pleased that all has worked out you for you.
 

kb3lms

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Mark, thank you. I just used some of my D-316 from a year ago and can report similar results. Mine has yellowed a bit as it was not refrigerated for several months. Once refrigerated, it has not yellowed any further and still works perfectly.

Jason
 

Bruce Osgood

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Thank you Mark, I wondered why you suddenly disappeared. Your findings of today are encouraging and I will not put off trying Mocon any/much longer.

Oh, I meant to add your disappearance was similar to the Lone Ranger's, the only thing remaining was the silver bullet.:D
 

Alan Johnson

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Although I relapsed to Xtol I kept my old samples from the Xtol Concentrate thread , stored in 1/3 full containers.
The Mocon has gone orange after ~18 months and the original sample that I tested for longevity in that thread has gone reddish brown after about 30 months.
Pics of them in white plastic containers, depth of developer concentrate about 2mm are attached.
Mark suggests that the coloration and emission of bubbles on shaking are not due to what I originally thought, oxidation of ascorbate.
This should baffle even the good chemists.
 

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albada

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Following up on Alan's observations below: My bottles stored at room-temperature were about 85% full, and I doubt that such a small amount of air could cause all that liquid to turn red. I also had a few bottles with more air in them. The rate of yellowing/reddening remains appears to be constant regardless of the amount of air in the bottle, or whether the bottle has been opened a few times. These facts make me suspect that oxygen in the concentrate itself is the culprit. Sodium metaborate 8 mol contains a goodly amount of water, making me wonder if its oxygen atoms are moving elsewhere in a very slow reaction.

Question: Do PC-TEA and similar developers yellow with age? They contain no metaborate.

Mark

Although I relapsed to Xtol I kept my old samples from the Xtol Concentrate thread , stored in 1/3 full containers.
The Mocon has gone orange after ~18 months and the original sample that I tested for longevity in that thread has gone reddish brown after about 30 months.
Pics of them in white plastic containers, depth of developer concentrate about 2mm are attached.
Mark suggests that the coloration and emission of bubbles on shaking are not due to what I originally thought, oxidation of ascorbate.
This should baffle even the good chemists.
 

Rudeofus

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Two observations and a possible test:
  1. The color shown in Alan's posting strongly resembles the various stages of oxidation in Phenidone/Dimezone-S.
  2. I have had a bottle with 5% Phenidone in PG alone (i.e. no Ascorbate, no Metaborate) for quite a while and see no such discoloration. Either the color shown here doesn't come from the Dimezone-S, or some extra ingredient is needed (the Metaborate?)
  3. Does the light orange color go away if the concentrate is dissolved in water? The Ascorbate may not be able to reduce Dimezone-S in PG, but it may restore it in aqueous solution. Note that further oxidation stages of Dimezone-S may not be restored by Ascorbic, so a test with dark red concentrate may not reveal much. If that test shows that the light orange color disappears, we know that Dimezone-S gives that color and Ascorbate is able to restore it. If the light orange color won't go away, it may come from the Ascorbic acid.
 

Alan Johnson

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If the orange Mocon is diluted to ~ 10% in water the color is virtually the same orange.
If ascorbic acid is added the color is lightened but still orange. It can be restored to the original by adding sodium carbonate.
The ascorbate print developer Neutol Plus shows a yellow to orange coloration in an apparently similar way, see Richard Knoppow:
http://www.photography-forums.com/agfa-neutol-t93768.html
I have had the orange color in an old glass bottle of 5x concentrate of Ryuji Suzuki's DS-12 which is metol (not phenidone)/ascorbate based so I think the orange color probably comes from the ascorbate.
The orange color doesn't show up in old Xtol because sulfite probably stops that reaction IMO.
I don't know what the orange compound is, but by all accounts it seems to be formed without air or with very little.
 
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albada

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Alan's experiments show that the yellow-orange-red is probably due to deteriorating ascorbate. Here's an idea: Make a concentrate using hydroquinone instead of ascorbate. Hydroquinone will dissolve in PG. Has anyone tried to make a PQ concentrate which was separate from the sulfite? The formula would probably contain these chemicals:

Propylene glycol
Sodium Metaborate
Boric Acid
Hydroquinone
Phenidone/DimezoneS

Does anyone know if this is feasible? I would expect that this formula could be made to perform like DD-X.

- Mark Overton


If the orange Mocon is diluted to ~ 10% in water the color is virtually the same orange.
If ascorbic acid is added the color is lightened but still orange. It can be restored to the original by adding sodium carbonate.
The ascorbate print developer Neutol Plus shows a yellow to orange coloration in an apparently similar way, see Richard Knoppow:
http://www.photography-forums.com/agfa-neutol-t93768.html
I have had the orange color in an old glass bottle of 5x concentrate of Ryuji Suzuki's DS-12 which is metol (not phenidone)/ascorbate based so I think the orange color probably comes from the ascorbate.
The orange color doesn't show up in old Xtol because sulfite probably stops that reaction IMO.
I don't know what the orange compound is, but by all accounts it seems to be formed without air or with very little.
 
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albada

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Yesterday, I developed a roll of Neopan 400 in the one-year-old Mocon. Perfect! The concentrate seems to be like new after spending one year in the freezer. And it's a little bottle, because you only need 3.6 grams of it for a roll of 35mm. The wifey won't mind a little bottle in there.

There are two changes I want to make to the Mocon article:

1. The sodium metaborate is 8-mol, not 4-mol. The 8-mol is what the Formulary sells.

2. The "slight speed-loss" mentioned in the article that occurs with some (but not all) films is about 1/4 stop.

Mark
 

Steve Law

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I just came across the thread for Mocon yesterday, and I immediately ordered the chemicals from Photo Formulary. The reason is, I just recently threw out 4 liters of XTOL and didn't want to do it again.

What I am wondering is could I use it in a Jobo CPE2 Plus? If so could I get some idea of starting times to use with the developer? I am using 120 roll film and am wondering also if I would be better off using the 1500 series of drums or the 2500 series. I would assume because of the larger diameter of the 2500 tanks, the developing of the film would be more aggressive. Is that true, or is the difference negligible. I recently decided to get back into photography and I had a smattering of equipment, but went on Ebay and bought a few things to play with.

I have liked everything I have heard about XTOL, that when I saw the thread about Mocon, my excitement level on the meter rose a great deal, actually it went though the roof, and I am on the ground floor. Now I want to go through with pursuing this line fairly aggressively, even though I don't like to be too aggressive about anything, but I think this might be worth it.

Thank you for all of your passionate work and devotion,
SL
 
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albada

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Steve, thanks for the kind note, and I'm glad to see folks getting use out of this Mocon concentrate. Keep in mind that each time you use it, you must measure-out the correct amount of liquid concentrate and sodium sulfite powder. The concentrate alone is useless without the sulfite. A $20 electronic scale with .01g resolution makes measuring both easy.

Anyway, I don't have a Jobo nor have I heard of any Mocon tests done with a Jobo, so I don't know how the times will change. I suggest computing the ratio of Jobo-time versus hand-time for XTOL, and adjusting the Mocon time by that ratio. That should get you very close.

Good luck,

Mark Overton

I just came across the thread for Mocon yesterday, and I immediately ordered the chemicals from Photo Formulary. The reason is, I just recently threw out 4 liters of XTOL and didn't want to do it again.

What I am wondering is could I use it in a Jobo CPE2 Plus? If so could I get some idea of starting times to use with the developer? I am using 120 roll film and am wondering also if I would be better off using the 1500 series of drums or the 2500 series. I would assume because of the larger diameter of the 2500 tanks, the developing of the film would be more aggressive. Is that true, or is the difference negligible. I recently decided to get back into photography and I had a smattering of equipment, but went on Ebay and bought a few things to play with.

I have liked everything I have heard about XTOL, that when I saw the thread about Mocon, my excitement level on the meter rose a great deal, actually it went though the roof, and I am on the ground floor. Now I want to go through with pursuing this line fairly aggressively, even though I don't like to be too aggressive about anything, but I think this might be worth it.

Thank you for all of your passionate work and devotion,
SL
 
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Is it possible to turn the commercial xtol packets into this concentrate? I have a few plastic packets that are nearing expiration.
 

Rudeofus

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Xtol starts with a single package, which means you can't really separate the Sulfite from the other compounds. And the Sulfite won't dissolve in TEA ...

Add to this the fact that TEA will change the pH of your soup, so you'd have to reformulate anyway ...
 
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Xtol starts with a single package, which means you can't really separate the Sulfite from the other compounds. And the Sulfite won't dissolve in TEA ...

Add to this the fact that TEA will change the pH of your soup, so you'd have to reformulate anyway ...

Ah thanks, but xtol packets are in part A and B though. But I assume the sulfite is mixed in both? Oh well, it would have been nice though, to get the benefits in this concentrate by modifying a commercial product for people who are chemically trained/ skilled.
 

Steve Law

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Mark, Thanks for the encouragement. I looked up the times in a Kodak data sheet for XTOL, and the times for tank developing and rotary developing are the same, 6 1/2 minutes @ 20 degrees C. (that is for TMY 400), (full strength, not 1:1.)

So I would hazard a guess, according to the times you give in the article, and that you state that it takes 13.5 minutes (about x2 of what Kodak recommends), and that you also say agitating once a minute and that it is the same number of inversions as XTOL, and you also state it takes twice the time of XTOL for developing Mocon, I think a very good starting place would be 13.5 minutes at 20 degrees C @ full strength, in the Jobo.

Thanks again. SL
 
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albada

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Ah thanks, but xtol packets are in part A and B though. But I assume the sulfite is mixed in both? Oh well, it would have been nice though, to get the benefits in this concentrate by modifying a commercial product for people who are chemically trained/ skilled.

Yes, both packets contain sulfite mixed with other things, so you cannot convert it into a liquid concentrate.

Also, I suggest storing unopened XTOL packets in the freezer. That should make them last considerably longer.
In fact, I store all my powders in the freezer. And yes I'm single; how did you guess? :smile:

Mark Overton
 

Steve Law

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I have one more quick question. What is a good way to heat the beaker while mixing the concentrate? I'm thinking water bath...?

SL
 
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albada

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I have one more quick question. What is a good way to heat the beaker while mixing the concentrate? I'm thinking water bath... SL

I have a strip of 1.5mm-thick sheet aluminum that is several inches wide by about 20 inches long. I laid the strip across two burners on the stove, and set the left burner to low heat, and kept the right burner off. Placing the beaker on the left end of the strip (over the burner) heated it quickly. When up to temperature, I moved the beaker on the strip to about halfway between the two burners, which kept it at the correct temperature. I could adjust temperature by shifting the beaker to the left or right on the strip. After dumping in each new chemical, the temperature would drop much, forcing me to move the beaker to the left end again.

A water-bath will probably work fine, and has the advantage of having less temperature-swing than my setup.

Mark Overton
 

Steve Law

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I was able to procure a 7" x 19" x 2mm thick plate. At $2 per pound, it cost me $2. I was moving along and trying to heat the plate to 75 degrees F and then after about 10 minutes of stirring the solution wasn't clearing, so I read the instructions and saw that letter "C" after the number 75. ie. 75C not 75F. Then I had to scramble for a thermometer that would go that high, continued to stir chemicals adding them one at a time and sliding the beaker between the hot part of the plate to the cooler section and everything worked fine. Great idea. I did noticed one thing and that was a little bit of smoke rising from the beaker, I think it was from the beaker. Is this normal?
 

Rudeofus

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Was that real smoke, or could it have been water vapor?
 
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albada

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I was able to procure a 7" x 19" x 2mm thick plate. At $2 per pound, it cost me $2. I was moving along and trying to heat the plate to 75 degrees F and then after about 10 minutes of stirring the solution wasn't clearing, so I read the instructions and saw that letter "C" after the number 75. ie. 75C not 75F. Then I had to scramble for a thermometer that would go that high, continued to stir chemicals adding them one at a time and sliding the beaker between the hot part of the plate to the cooler section and everything worked fine. Great idea. I did noticed one thing and that was a little bit of smoke rising from the beaker, I think it was from the beaker. Is this normal?

As Rudeofus hinted, you were probably seeing water vapor as some dissolved water was steaming out. Also, at that temperature, you get some glycol vapor as well.

Where did you buy your sheet aluminum? Mine was surplus from the machine-shop where I used to work, and I'd like to find another source for it.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that the mixing-and-dissolving operation went well. Please let us know how this developer performs.

Mark Overton
 

Steve Law

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I think it was water vapor and maybe some glycol vaper as well. I played around with the sheet of aluminum on the stove trying various settings and noticed the same thing with just water in the beaker. So far as the sheet of aluminum goes, it was from a little business that collects scrap metals and such. It is called Rowe Machinery in Santa Cruz, CA. The plate I got looks like it was a part of an electronics enclosure front plate which could also be bought from Mouser of Digikey.

Now, I have decided after doing some reading from Stephen Anchell and Bill Troop's book called "The Film Developing Cookbook", that I am going to not use the Jobo. They were very clear about some of the problems that can occur with continuous agitation. Such as "interferes with the formation of sharpness-enhancing edge effects." also "Because continuous agitation exaggerates highlight development at the expense of shadow development it also results in lower speed and a shorter tonal scale". They go on to say that that "One way of compensating for this is to use a more dilute developer. Whatever developer you use, dilute it with at least 30% more water and increase your development time."

Since I am just starting and have nothing to compare to, I am going to use the development recommended by Mark. I am thinking that, I will after a while, once I get settled into a good darkroom routine, I will probably use the Jobo once I have something to compare my results with. However, I have a long way to go before I get there.

Steve Law
 
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