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Photo Engineer

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Ian;

Actually, according to Bill Troop and Grant Haist, there are patents out there that describe aromatic organic dichroic fog inhibitors. IDK if you are aware of them or not, but there was a problem with the formation of fog until these were used.

Today, an entirely new class of silver halide solvents would be used if new developers were being formulated. There are several good organics that combine both functions into one molecule.

PE
 

Photo Engineer

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Just been reading some of Grant Haist's Patents but for quite different applications. They did allude (& list) to other anti-foggants though.

Ian

Ian;

I believe that this patent was granted to Dick Henn. The chemicals were not classed as antifoggants but rather inhibitors. They are not classic antifoggants and are not normally used as such except in this case.

PE
 
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billtroop

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Ian wrote,

'Jim, Troop adds salt to D23, but the formula I'd suggest is is D25 + salt. As D25 is D23 with added Metabisulphite it amounts to the same thing'

Troop does not add salt to D23. Henn did something close to that when he formulated Microdol, but it is important to note that it wasn't the same thing. The substitute Microdol formula I publish contains 5g/L of metol; D23 contains 7.5. "It", whatever "it" is, does not amount to the same thing. Henn did not choose to go down the metabisulfite (i.e. less alkaline) route with Microdol, for two reasons: developing time was too long, and the longer immersion in sulfite was not giving the desired fine grain effect. By the time Microdol was being formulated, Kodak had realized that fine grain without sharpness was not a worthwhile goal. In any case, the formula is printed in Haist -- but you wouldn't know it corresponded to Microdol if you didn't have Haist around to tell you so. From a practical point of view, these developers are not worth using with contemporary films unless some form of 'antistain' or antisilvering chemical is used. These will not be found in MSDS sheets! The amounts needed are small enough not to require mentioning.

I'm still waiting for Ian to qualify or quantify this statement:

'Troop makes some glaring mistakes unfortunately.'

What I have noticed in the ten years since FDC was published is that people who have genuinely found an error or an issue (and there have been a few, all of them addressed in reprints and on the graphos.org website which is temporarily down!) will email me or phone me with specifics, rather than making generalized, non-specific accusations in public forums. Ian, do you want to be counted along with the former class, or the latter one? Nobody is more interested than me in finding errors in the Film Developing Cookbook, which I am planning to put into a second edition as soon as possible with some new collaborators. Steve Anchell contributed little more than his name to the first edition, and will not be participating in the new one.
 

ghost

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Doh! - B**ch-slapped by B. Troop!

I love this forum :smile:
 

Steve Anchell

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The Film Developing Cookbook by Anchell & Troop

Whether or not there are errors in the FDC, which like most technical books there undoubtedly are, I will leave to Bill, Ian, and others to hash out.

I am first and foremost a working photographer whose interest is in the image that results from using a particular formula. Apropos to this forum discussion in 1973 I used Microdol-X to develop portraits made on 4x5” Super XX. Not a combination I would recommend today, even if Super XX was still available!

The reason I am responding to this thread is that Bill Troop has for some time threatened to mount a smear campaign against me. His response to Ian Grant appears to be the first shot.

This is what Bill says in the last sentence of his post to Ian:

‘Steve Anchell contributed little more than his name to the first edition (of the Film Developing Cookbook), and will not be participating in the new one.’

It appears that Bill wishes to discredit me because we co-jointly own the copyright of the FDC. Bill informed me that he wished to revise the FDC with the assistance of Ron Mowery (for whom I have a great deal of respect - to my knowledge Ron knows nothing of the copyright issue between Bill and me). Bill wanted me to release my copyright on the material and the title. I said no.

My suggestion was that Bill come up with a new title and write his own book on film development. While the material in the FDC is copyrighted the facts regarding film development are in the public domain.

Today, after posting his response to Ian, Bill sent me the following e-mail:

“I have all our old conversations on CD and DVD, which I'm having shipped over here (England). The one where you tell me you have no interest at all in getting anywhere near my copyright is pretty near the beginning, so shouldn't be too hard to find. It'll make a great audio clip! -- on the web, and in court, when you sue me for copyright infringement. We'll include several of your jokes as well, I want the world to know you for a humorist!

“Steve, who is this pesky Ian Grant person? Not a suitable editor for you.”

I will allow you to draw your own conclusions from the above.

I am publicly stating on APUG that Bill Troop does not have my permission to use the title nor any copyrighted material contained in the Film Development Cookbook. Bill has my best wishes in producing an entirely new work on film development.

As Photo Engineer says earlier in this thread:

‘Today, an entirely new class of silver halide solvents would be used if new developers were being formulated. There are several good organics that combine both functions into one molecule.’

The world of silver needs new insights . . . not old developments.
 

billtroop

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Doh! - B**ch-slapped by S. Anchell!

I love this forum :smile:

Steve is holding Ron and me up for more money. He can't accept we offered him all we had.
 

billtroop

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So I guess we won't be asking Brad to contribute to the fund for Steve.
 

BradS

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I remember when my oldest son was about three years old. We could take him to Borders Books store and he would sit and look at books for hours. He loved to look at the books and to pull a couple off the shelves and drool on them. As long things were going as he wanted, he was golden.

After about three hours of browsing, even I get tired of Borders. When it came time to leave...I'd pick up the toddler and start walking for the door. Invariably, he would figure out that we were leaving the store when we got about ten or fifteen meters from the door....and he would flex every muscle in his little body and let out a howling scream that made every head in the store turn and look.


Bill, you're behaving badly. Grow up. Or, go to your room and cry. We don't want to hear it.
 

billtroop

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Brad, I'm deeply touched that you look at this through a parent's eyes.

I went onto Amazon today to look at FDC/DCB rankings. At 6 pm GMT, the sales ranks were

Darkroom Cookbook 3rd edition #244,580
Film Developing Cookbook 1st edition #124,297

In the category Darkroom and Processing Books, the old FDC is ranked 13, while the new DCB3 is ranked 23.

While it is reassuring to see that the old FDC is still outselling the DCB3, it is disturbing that Steve is preventing FDC from being updated. It is five or six years since Focal Press first asked me to update the book. Steve has again and again refused to let it be updated. I've never understood why.
 
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Anscojohn

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I think discussions between authors and editors should be left off this forum.
John J. Cahill.
 

trexx

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I think discussions between authors and editors should be left off this forum.
John J. Cahill.

I am rather enjoying the spat. If airing in public brings out a new book, whether be called FDC or not, that will be good.
 

jim appleyard

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While it is reassuring to see that the old FDC is still outselling the FDC3, it is disturbing that Steve is preventing FDC from being updated. It is five or six years since Focal Press first asked me to update the book. Steve has again and again refused to let it be updated. I've never understood why.

So call the new one something else. Make it your own with or without anyone's help. Make your new book better than anything you've written before. Wipe the slate clean and start over.
 
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billtroop

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Jim, I wish it were as simple as just calling it something else. I have no problem calling it something else. And personally, I have no problem going ahead and using what material in my old book I want to use, because it would be up to Steve to sue me, and he'd lose because I can prove he had nothing to do with the book other than to put his name on it. But . . . I would have a hard time getting a new publisher to accept that responsibility. And it would be completely unfair to Ron Mowrey, who is the nicest guy in the world, to drag him into a squabble like this.

The only reason I want to do a new FDC at all is because Ron wants to be involved. I already said almost everything I had to say in the first edition. I don't have a very great deal more to say. But nobody of Ron's quality and experience has ever written a popular book like this before, and it would be FANTASTIC to have him participating actively in the book.

Steve lost interest in FDC around 2005 when I told him that if he wanted to be stay on as co-author, he'd have to do some work for once: that meant testing new films. It didn't mean getting John M's (from J&R) opinion on the new films, which is what he suggested. I also desperately wanted Steve to illustrate the book with his own photos. Steve is a FABULOUS photographer and he could have done a superb job. He told me the problem with that is that he'd been shooting too much digital for too long, and didn't feel his silver technique was good enough anymore. I told him that was nonsense and to stop feeling insecure about it. I still don't know why Steve doesn't feel his silver work is great. I think it is. But what can you do with somebody who doesn't believe in himself?
 

billtroop

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That's a good question. We're working on it right now and will get back to you hopefully in a couple of hours.
 

billtroop

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What would we do in FDC2?

Ron's suggestions for enlarging FDC 2 are substantial. Knowing how long it took me to distill the information I put into FDC1 into the clearest and least ambiguous prose possible, my head spins at the task before us. Yet it would be worth it.

Just to start with, Ron wants to include color processing.

Among other things we were thinking of adding would be sections or chapters on:

1. paper developers (there has never been a serious, detailed discussion of paper developers - - I would have liked to do such a chapter for FDC but by then it was only about film)

2. color film and paper developers, bleaches and blixes -- that would be a massive section

3. much more on hardeners in solutions and materials

4. substantially enlarged coverage of image permanence, both for paper and film (Ron has that nicely subcategorized as: a. silver, heat, light and pollutants and b. color, heat, light and pollutants)

5. much more on reversal processing

6. techniques for development by inspection

and much more -- which could, because of Ron's expertise, include a primer on do-it-yourself emulsion coating.

It's difficult to see how we could add all of that without going to a separate volume. Maybe a second volume would embrace color film and paper processing and b/w emulsion making? Yet I would be reluctant to have a two-volume format and would rather stay concise and in one volume. I guess we would drop the 20 or so pages of times for developers and films -- and perhaps add another hundred or even two hundred pages of additional material. All of that developer timing stuff is on the internet - - there isn't much need to duplicate it anymore in print. As for Ron's emulsion stuff, he's been going forward with his own book exclusively on that, and that's probably the best way to do it. The narrower your focus, the better chance you have of doing a good job.

The two most frequent suggestions I have had over the past ten years for improving FDC are:

1. pictures that illustrate techniques and developers mentioned in the book (this is what I wanted Steve to do for the 2nd edition, and what he was so reluctant to do)

2. and to a lesser degree, there were many, many justified complaints from European readers that I did not pay sufficient attention to the vast range of European products and the vast literature from Europe, particularly Germany. There is a HUGE range of formulas published in post-war German language texts that have never been made available in English publications, and there can be no doubt that FDC was too US/UK-centric. On the other hand, how on earth do we integrate this information? How do we decide which formulas are relevant today? Which are only of strictly historical interest? How do we know who is going to be interested in what? To solve that problem, I have had another book in mind for a couple of decades, and I think it's time to do it. It would be the most complete historical formulary we could assemble. AND it would contain our comments on every formula. It would not just be the formula. We'd ask: What is/was interesting about the formula? could it be used today? how should the original instructions be changed for contemporary materials? what results should realistically be expected? Basically, not to be snippy, it would be everything that FDC should have been and never was -- in my view. In this Formulary book, we'd be able to include most of the massive amount of information on European formulas that several kind readers have sent me, in some cases hand-scanning books that were many hundreds of pages long. Consider, too, that as more people start hand-coating their own papers and films, we are in a much better position to explore the possibilities of some of these older formulas. And of course, we'd be able to include a few interesting formulas we have up our sleeves that have never been published anywhere before.

One thing I tried to do in FDC was to give readers a good sense of how to invent their own formulas: how much of this, that, and the other is needed, and why? Ron and I could expand this, and organize it better.

Oh yes, and before I forget, Ron wants much more detailed coverage on stop baths and fixers. My original chapter on stop baths was about 30 pages long. I condensed that to two or three pages for FDC. Similarly, in FDC I was very interested in getting the alkaline fixing message across. Now that it has got across, I'd like to give more mindshare to neutral pH fixes and the entire history of the acid fix, bringing it up right to the present, which is a special area of Ron's expertise.

As you can see, FDC2 would be a really exciting book, mainly due to the fantastic range of expertise that Ron could bring to it. On the other hand, distilling it, double and triple checking it, expressing it clearly, would be a phenomenal challenge.

I very much want to do this because -- to be absolutely frank about it -- I've never had a chance to work that closely with someone of Ron's stature in the industry before. For FDC, I had the collaboration and help of dozens of giants in the industry -- but they weren't co-authoring the book -- they didn't have that responsibility. Many of these people, especially Grant Haist, spent hundreds of hours with me, over many long years. But still, they weren't my co-authors. That's a different thing. Being able to tap into Ron's knowledge would bring a whole new dimension to the literature. The Formulary book I've mentioned here I could do on my own -- though I would want Ron on it if he were available. But to do the FDC2 that we've discussed -- whatever we eventually call it -- that, I couldn't do myself. I'd mainly be redacting and editing Ron. Which is work enough! Nobody knows, until they've actually done it, how much trouble it is, to write something down in English so that it is understood as you intend it to be understood.

Because of the special feeling that Ron has for getting all the information he possibly can into the record, I think this is a unique opportunity that shouldn't be missed. Because, to put it bluntly, when he goes, there just isn't going to be any more information. There are at least a couple of hundred other people in the photo industry who have both Ron's depth and range of knowledge, and who are still alive. But Ron is the only one of the lot who has a commitment to bring that knowledge to the public.

To me, it's a no-brainer. We should go ahead. Indeed, we've been trying to go ahead with it for the past four years. We wanted to get started on this in 2005. But we've had a lot of obstruction and the path forward does not seem clear. In the meantime, the years are going by. Our hands are still tied.
 

Tom Kershaw

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Bill,

Your outline is impressive. Particularly on the areas that aren't covered to a great extent. In B&W terms the fixing / stop bath issues especially seem like an area generating a deal of confusion with some. Paper developers are of a personal interest at the moment due to my attempts at a cooltone developer... If including colour photography would you take a system design approach or more documentary?

Tom.
 

billtroop

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P.S.

How are our hands tied? In 2005, Focal Press very much wanted to go ahead with this book. Ron and I started mapping it out. It was our intent that Steve participate if he wanted to. However, the copyright of the book was then owned by Focal Press, and Diane Wurzel, our editor, agreed that Steve would not participate in it, mainly because he had refused to do any work on it in the preceding several years. And because there was nothing he could contribute to it and there was self-evidently an enormous amount that Ron could contribute to it. Well and good. On March 31, 2007, Steve wrote to me that Focal was delighted with this arrangement and so was he. But on April 11, Diane Wurzel from Focal told me that

"I'm afraid the time for a new edition of FDC has come and gone...we
aren't looking into revising this book any longer. I talked with Steve a
while back and it was agreed we would officially cancel the contract.
The paper work has been in process -- if it hasn't gone out already it
will shortly."

Trying to piece together what happened later, I discovered that Steve went behind my back and told Focal that we weren't interested in FDC2 but that he would still be interested in doing DCB3. What I didn't know, until 2008, was that Focal was legally obligated to return the copyright to both Steve and me, even though they knew -- none better -- that his contribution to the book was negligible. Their hands were tied. I never dreamed that Steve wouldn't let his copyright go. I thought I knew him well. And I certainly think I've done enough to foster his reputation. But the fact is, he doesn't seem to want me and Ron to write this book. He has spent the last three years doing everything he can to stop it.

Ron has not been involved in any of the negotiations with Steve or Focal and was not aware of this until I made him aware of it. In fact, some of this he will be seeing for the first time here. Cheers, Ron!
 

billtroop

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Tom, thanks for your comments. I've glanced at some of the threads on paper tone and there are a few things I believe we could add. I wouldn't want to present any of the information I've built up on this until it's been tested with the latest materials. As for color, we would not want to focus on one approach to the exclusion of another. We would try to strike the best possible balance between system design and documentary. Your question does highlight a problem which I don't think we had adequately considered. The more I think about it, the more I think we need to think about the dichotomy between these approaches, rather than, as we probably would have, instinctively welding them together. Please elaborate a little, if or when you have the time.
 

Tom Kershaw

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Tom, thanks for your comments. I've glanced at some of the threads on paper tone and there are a few things I believe we could add. I wouldn't want to present any of the information I've built up on this until it's been tested with the latest materials. As for color, we would not want to focus on one approach to the exclusion of another. We would try to strike the best possible balance between system design and documentary. Your question does highlight a problem which I don't think we had adequately considered. The more I think about it, the more I think we need to think about the dichotomy between these approaches, rather than, as we probably would have, instinctively welding them together. Please elaborate a little, if or when you have the time.

Not a full elaboration just at the moment; but I was thinking that a 'system design' approach might look at how one would go about creating a colour reproduction system, the benefits and problems with various approaches, and the practical or theoretical principles underlying various concepts. Whereas a documentary approach might look at historical issues, how Kodak / Fuji / Agfa approach(ed) the processes and the how & why of current processes, concepts, and operations etc.

I suppose the approaches relate to what is in existence compared to what could be...

Tom.
 

ghost

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So you want to write the book- why does he not just give you the copyright? What's his incentive for blocking progress?
 
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Bill, several comments on this "interesting" thread. :smile:
  • You can't do better than Ron Mowery!
  • Consider self-publishing. If funding that becomes an issue, investigate an APUG collaboration with Sean. The 20,000+ registered folks here might be able to make it happen.
  • Although not "anti-color," I'm a realist. Ron's work teaching emulsion making/coating (which will be sufficiently covered in his own book/DVD) could be the only reason silver halide imaging continues to be practiced decades from now. Even if commercially manufactured products still exist at that point, color will have certainly been discontinued. Put your efforts into the area most likely to survive.
Best of luck with your undertaking!
 

nworth

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It sounds like Bill Troop (with Ron) does have sufficient independent material for an excellent book on film development. Some formulas in the old FDC might not appear, but there is no lack of formulas out there. If I may, I would like to suggest a form that would emphasize how the reader/practitioner should approach the problems and objectives of development - if I want low contrast, or warm paper tones, or fine grain, or whatever, what principles apply to formulating the developer and developing whatever material I have? How have the changes in photographic materials (and what are those changes) affected the formulation of developers and how they are used? A fair amount of this was in the original FDC, and it is extremely useful. I would like to see it as a principal theme, with cookbook examples given mainly to show how the problems were approached and goals attained. The current FDC is mostly a cookbook, and it is very useful as one. This is what many people want, and it would certainly be possible to include enough examples in any new book to satisfy that need. But I would also like enough information to give a real understanding of how these formulas work and why they are put together as they are so that the book could serve as a starting point for experimenters.
 
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