Micro Four-Thirds, film comparison

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blockend

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It's often said that the M4/3 format is the digital inheritor of the 35mm film tradition. There are too many variables to make a direct comparison, including the evolution of lenses in the last twenty years and viewing technology, so I thought I'd stick to maximum print size that retains full resolution, close up.

This was triggered by a debate elsewhere where people claim to have made very large prints from micro four-thirds cameras, including a 7ft 4in (225 x 150 cm) image from a 16mp M4/3 file, on YouTube. It isn't news that small formats can produce extremely large printed images, exhibitions routinely contain prints several feet across, sometimes themselves reproduced from a small print source. Given sufficiently viewing distance there are no limits to print size, as billboard advertisements illustrate.

However in a domestic environment, or a gallery where framed images invite the viewer to look ever closer, sharpness and resolution have limitations that depend, among other factors, on the format used. There is a subjective element in determining how sharp is sharp, and sharpness isn't the only factor in determining what people think of as "sharpness", which is a mix of factors. Nevertheless I thought I'd do my own tests using optimum apertures and focal lengths, and especially by downloading files from lenses thought to be exemplary and resolving the highest possible detail on test charts.

My conclusion was that if you require absolute detail in a context like landscape, where the ability to discern and describe individual pieces of foliage and stones at distance is a way in to the subject matter, 16 x 12" is a useful working limit. Which happens to coincide with my experience of 35mm film over the years.

This may seem conservative, and there's no doubt many would be satisfied with much larger prints. Nor does it speak to the aesthetic qualities of the image, or the visceral effect size might have on the viewer, or the technical parameters of print technology. It's simply my appraisal of the potential of the micro four-thirds format for nose-to-the-glass examination some subjects and certain situations invite.

Any thoughts?
 
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chriscrawfordphoto

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I have been shooting with two 20mp Micro Four Thirds cameras for a little over a year. I switched from a Canon fullframe system (5DmkII) because my health problems were making the big, heavy Canon too hard to handhold and too heavy to carry all day. I started with the tiny Olympus Pen-F, then added an E-M1 Mark II because I wanted weather sealing.

The Canon I used before was also 20mp. I regularly make and sell 16x20 prints from my Canon files and my Olympus files, and they look great even up close. The Canon files have slightly less noise, but the Olympus files are sharper with finer detail resolution. Part of that is because the Olympus cameras do not have an antialiasing filter, and Canon uses a fairly strong one on their cameras. I think the Olympus lenses are just plain sharper, though, and that makes a difference. I'm using Olympus's higher priced lenses, not the cheap kit lenses. I have the 7-14mm f2.8 Pro, the 12-40mm f2.8 Pro, and the 60mm f2.8 Macro.
 

Ces1um

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Having just bought a m43 camera after shooting film for the last 7 years, this thread is very timely for me. I rarely print, and typically when I do I'm only printing 8x6 so I never really have an issue with maximum resolution for either format as I'm not pushing either format to their limits. I hope the thread doesn't devolve down to which is better, 35mm vs m43 which is where I fear it will go. I'd love to hear though if people are pushing either format further than 16x12 with excellent results, or if people agree that 16x12 tends to be the upper limit for a sharp print. Thanks for the interesting topic @blockend
 
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blockend

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It's a subjective topic and I wouldn't want to infer that sharpness has any bearing on how good a photograph is. My criterion is how big can I print without being at a sharpness disadvantage to a larger format. Even then I acknowledge different formats render differently. Traditionally "serious" landscape photographers used larger film formats for their ability to make large exhibition prints, as well as camera movements to maintain sharpness throughout. Jem Southam spent years with a 10 x 8" camera, colour negative film, tripod and ladder as part of his photographic practice. He has become a digital photographer, in part because the papers he favours are no longer available. The point being that print size is one of the factors in a genre like landscape photography, so it's worth knowing what the limits of resolution are, in the knowledge each will have a slightly different standard of acceptability. Of course there are landscape photographs for which the resolution of fine detail is unimportant, but are still superb images. I'm thinking of Mario Giacomelli's work, for example:
http://www.anatomyfilms.com/mario-giacomelli-im-not-photographer/
 
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blockend

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The Canon I used before was also 20mp. I regularly make and sell 16x20 prints from my Canon files and my Olympus files, and they look great even up close. The Canon files have slightly less noise, but the Olympus files are sharper with finer detail resolution. Part of that is because the Olympus cameras do not have an antialiasing filter, and Canon uses a fairly strong one on their cameras. I think the Olympus lenses are just plain sharper, though, and that makes a difference. I'm using Olympus's higher priced lenses, not the cheap kit lenses. I have the 7-14mm f2.8 Pro, the 12-40mm f2.8 Pro, and the 60mm f2.8 Macro.
To avoid confusion, I compared images at base ISO with the best lenses. Higher ISO comparisons have to negotiate how well the camera software processes noise, and the unavoidable conclusion that larger formats are less noisy all other things being equal. There are other factors, too, optical characteristics other than sharpness. One of the lenses generally regarded as being among the sharpest available showed excessive chromatic aberration on the examples I looked at. Little point in being knife sharp if a treeline introduces a new colour to the palette
 

Ces1um

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It's a subjective topic and I wouldn't want to infer that sharpness has any bearing on how good a photograph is. My criterion is how big can I print without being at a sharpness disadvantage to a larger format. /
Understood. It's also a bit tricky because as you've mentioned is subjective. What one member will feel is acceptable "clear/sharp/crisp" or "acceptable resolution" will not be acceptable to another. Still though I think some people here will have the experience to provide a reasonable opinion. I think this weekend I may print out a few of my m43 photos at larger sizes just to see where my own thoughts lie.
 
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blockend

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Understood. It's also a bit tricky because as you've mentioned is subjective. What one member will feel is acceptable "clear/sharp/crisp" or "acceptable resolution" will not be acceptable to another. Still though I think some people here will have the experience to provide a reasonable opinion. I think this weekend I may print out a few of my m43 photos at larger sizes just to see where my own thoughts lie.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. It's worth mentioning that a printed surface is more forgiving of sharpening than a computer screen. Images that look pin sharp on a monitor can appear to lack sharpness in a print. It's a complicated business!
 

trendland

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It's a subjective topic and I wouldn't want to infer that sharpness has any bearing on how good a photograph is. My criterion is how big can I print without being at a sharpness disadvantage to a larger format. Even then I acknowledge different formats render differently. Traditionally "serious" landscape photographers used larger film formats for their ability to make large exhibition prints, as well as camera movements to maintain sharpness throughout. Jem Southam spent years with a 10 x 8" camera, colour negative film, tripod and ladder as part of his photographic practice. He has become a digital photographer, in part because the papers he favours are no longer available. The point being that print size is one of the factors in a genre like landscape photography, so it's worth knowing what the limits of resolution are, in the knowledge each will have a slightly different standard of acceptability. Of course there are landscape photographs for which the resolution of fine detail is unimportant, but are still superb images. I'm thinking of Mario Giacomelli's work, for example:
http://www.anatomyfilms.com/mario-giacomelli-im-not-photographer/
Let me state blockend the restriction of big prints is from individual preferences!
Of you regarding prints of 100 x 150 with a distance of 3 - 4 meter everything is fine
(from every media)!
My point is the "close up" for example in a way : " Who is that guy on the picture in the background" And here is the difference : "Is this Steve?" - yes that must be Steve because he is wearing his typical "Ray Ban" but is that realy Steve? It seams so - is it a Ray Ban (if not it can't be him because he never would use sunglasses different!) :
Screenshot_20190503-131150~01.png


.....yes it is a "Ray Ban" indeed the man beside the group of people in the background must be
Steve for sure!

Is it a good picture because it's Steve in the background? No! The much better picture could be a fine portrait of Steve because he is a tough guy indeed! Is it a good picture because one
can identify Ray Ban sunglasses ? No! Because I hate Ray Ban and btw. if I will shot portrait with Steve he should not wear his Ray Ban - I wan't to see the "shine" in his eyes for photographing him - it's Steve 100% (not his brother) because this guy is wearing his Rolex - his little brother
can't afford - buy the way : When was Steve at Mary's Garden Party?

Screenshot_20190503-132421~01.png


......last Sunday....:sad:....I was not invided:mad::mad:! But Steve!:cry:o
That details will show you the difference of quality in convern of technical issues - here in this case
RESOLUTION!

with regards

PS : The resolution a media is able to show is in concern of the system resolution!
Beside the lens the mega pixel with digital come into the play!
But listen : In 2019 you should not care about megapixels any longer!
Because the size of the sensor is the limiting factor - especially in regard of the max. print!
(Guess you have not the need to identify the date of a shot like me?)
Because you have the luck to be invitated all the time - I am not:D:laugh::D:D:laugh:!
 

Alan Johnson

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I have a 16mpx micro 4/3 camera, in the print aspect ratio 3x2 I calculate it gives an image 4900 x 3266 = 16mpx.
This is 3266/2 = 1633 line pairs/ picture height. On 35 mm film the picture height is 24 mm so the on film resolution equivalent to a 16mpx mft camera is 1633/ 24 = 68 lppm.
If the mft image is printed at 300 dpi this gives a width of 4900/300 =16.3 ins.
 

faberryman

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Your results coincide with the rule of thumb of a full frame image printed at 300 dpi, so no real surprise. Doesn't allow much room for cropping.
 

MattKing

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A large portion of the "quality" that comes from a digital sensor comes from the "quality" of the processor in the camera and, if you are working from raw files, the quality of the raw converter you use.
I've had Costco print a couple of bordered 12"x16" prints from my Olympus OMD 10 Mark II. I've used the jpegs, straight from the camera, with at most an adjustment to brightness. The large size jpeg files from that camera are exactly the right size to make a 300 dpi bordered 12"x16" print - no resizing or cropping required.
The quality of the entire process - lens, camera sensor, exposure control, focus control, processor and programming in the camera, can help the person behind the camera obtain really quite amazing prints of that size - for $5.99 + tax on Fuji RA-4 paper.
Anything larger requires post-camera processing, because 12"x16" at 300 dpi prints make full use of all the pixels that come out of the camera.
So people who are printing larger are either printing at fewer dpi, or are applying software and skills to interpolate more detail than is natively available from the camera. Some of those people, and some of that software, can do amazing things.
 

trendland

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OK what about the ability of micro four thirds now? AS mentioned forget the Megapixels - you have to regard the space of sensor in comparison of full frame sensors!
Camera-sensor-sizes-2018-PhotoSeek.jpg

(C) Photoseek.com

And (sorry to tell) mirco four thirds is not a very good option - but of course it is better than
an IPhone (look who is last and you know who is worse)

with regards

PS : A picture with extrem fine details I desribed would have the need of enourmius sensor space
and the equivalent of min. ~ 800 MP = 8x10 with high resolution film , 4500,- USD lens at sweetspot (Rosenstock lens for example) and for digital workflow you would need a real good
drumscan!

PPS : A Phase one with big sensor would give a quarter of that resolution = extreme details
to print 50 x 75cm. But of course micro four thirds will also work at 100dpi:wink:!
But for my preferences this would be not enough = standing 3-4 meter in front of the print:sad:!
 

trendland

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Sorry RODENSTOCK of course = tablet is not knowing:sad:!
 

trendland

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A large portion of the "quality" that comes from a digital sensor comes from the "quality" of the processor in the camera and, if you are working from raw files, the quality of the raw converter you use.
I've had Costco print a couple of bordered 12"x16" prints from my Olympus OMD 10 Mark II. I've used the jpegs, straight from the camera, with at most an adjustment to brightness. The large size jpeg files from that camera are exactly the right size to make a 300 dpi bordered 12"x16" print - no resizing or cropping required.
The quality of the entire process - lens, camera sensor, exposure control, focus control, processor and programming in the camera, can help the person behind the camera obtain really quite amazing prints of that size - for $5.99 + tax on Fuji RA-4 paper.
Anything larger requires post-camera processing, because 12"x16" at 300 dpi prints make full use of all the pixels that come out of the camera.
So people who are printing larger are either printing at fewer dpi, or are applying software and skills to interpolate more detail than is natively available from the camera. Some of those people, and some of that software, can do amazing things.
Matt - can one realy come to more information from interpolation of a media ?

with regards

PS : Like in action movies showing the clear headline of a newspaper from live cam of spy satelite
via : " Officer can you sharpen the picture we need further details" ??????:wink:?
 

MattKing

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Matt - can one realy come to more information from interpolation of a media ?
Of course.
The information is added after the fact, and may or may not be different than the information present in the original scene, but it is indeed "more" information.
All sharpening algorithms change the information.
 

trendland

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Of course.
The information is added after the fact, and may or may not be different than the information present in the original scene, but it is indeed "more" information.
All sharpening algorithms change the information.
Well Matt - I am not so sure but I will think about that!
If a single sensor part resoncible for one pixel has the choise to record the information (just in regard of color and of course position= its own coordinate) and it would decide on yellow?
Of course its master will decide but first that single pixel part has to call its master !
Yellow because the sensor part is located on the middle line between a black line and a yellow area! And it is located (from the actual stand of information via incomming light wafes) more near
the yellow area (master decided to yellow because of location....)!
What is next? The black line is not recorded because of pixel resolution of the sensor !
(If lens can provide more information in regard of sensor resolution)
There is a lost of information = missing thin black line at coordinate of a single pixel!
Master will advice next pixel to record "black" because other incoming information is black!
After a while of nano sec. it is clear there must be a thin black line some positioned sensor

parts report?At last first sensor part is adviced to change yellow into black!
So far so clear! But is that enough to come to information outside system resolution

via computational power - same procedure AS you mentioned concerning software workflow for preparation to print? I will think about!

with regards
 
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blockend

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Of course.
The information is added after the fact, and may or may not be different than the information present in the original scene, but it is indeed "more" information.
All sharpening algorithms change the information.
I've never understood how dedicated interpolation software works. Sharpening, contrast, saturation and the rest I get, and the role they play in enhancing the perception of "sharpness", among other things. Does it add pixels based on the proximity of similar pixels to effectively make a larger file and offer more information?

Edit: I took the opportunity to look it up. It seem bicubic interpolation, which interpolates the nearest 16 pixels and is considered the best, degrades the image between 120 and 150% enlargement, which doesn't seem like a lot.
 
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MattKing

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I've never understood how dedicated interpolation software works. Sharpening, contrast, saturation and the rest I get, and the role they play in enhancing the perception of "sharpness", among other things. Does it add pixels based on the proximity of similar pixels to effectively make a larger file and offer more information?
That is how I understand it.
 

Jim Jones

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I have a 16mpx micro 4/3 camera, in the print aspect ratio 3x2 I calculate it gives an image 4900 x 3266 = 16mpx.
This is 3266/2 = 1633 line pairs/ picture height. On 35 mm film the picture height is 24 mm so the on film resolution equivalent to a 16mpx mft camera is 1633/ 24 = 68 lppm.
If the mft image is printed at 300 dpi this gives a width of 4900/300 =16.3 ins.

While 3266/2 does indeed equal 1633 pixel pairs per picture height, that does not accurately define the digital camera's resolution in line pairs per mm. It takes a little more than 2 pixels to equal 1 lp/mm on film. My 4/3 Nikon without anti-aliasing filter resolves about 50 0r 55 lp/mm, less than 35mm film cameras with good lenses and careful photography. The 35mm full frame is also about a third larger. Camera internal processing of the 4/3 image seems to make up a for little of that loss in practical photography.
 

faberryman

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I have a 16mpx micro 4/3 camera, in the print aspect ratio 3x2 I calculate it gives an image 4900 x 3266 = 16mpx.
This is 3266/2 = 1633 line pairs/ picture height. On 35 mm film the picture height is 24 mm so the on film resolution equivalent to a 16mpx mft camera is 1633/ 24 = 68 lppm.
If the mft image is printed at 300 dpi this gives a width of 4900/300 =16.3 ins.
If you've got a 16MP m43 sensor and you crop it to a 3:2 aspect ratio, you don't have 16MP left. Not sure what performing lppm calculations gets you. When I've shown my work, I've never had anyone ask me what kind of camera I use, much less how many lppm it achieves.
 
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trendland

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OK this thread comes to the point of general resolution from digital?
Here is my point of view : Resolution is restricted (physically limitations). Because there is a massive noice wich is a border to come to more and more resolution (from more and more pixel in MP)!
Because of the smaller space/size of each sensor part in pixel (of 60 million on same sensor squere f.e.)
But the computational power of digital cameras modernest type (and IPhone btw.) seams to be
able to minimize that digital noice with more and more efficiency! Otherwise a Smartphone wich
such smallest sized digital sensors ever - with 16MP would cause catastrophic image quality beside it's 16MP!
So one can notice : soft - and hardware based manipulation can compensate restriction of resolution!
And it can higher system performance more and more!
But it can't set physics out of order! And with 120MP for Nikon and Canon New full frame sensors
the game will come to unbreacable physically limitations!
(the actual size is ~ 10% smaller compared to todays full frame dimentions 24x36)

What is the conclusion from that? More quality need more size! (from digital sensor)!
And then we will come back to normal rules of photography since more than 150years!
If the max. of technology is exausted it is the need to higher the format!
The todays digital technology for still photography seams to be at a point short before exhaustion!

The technology transfer to film has stoped since ~ 10 years! And the possibilitis to higher film
quality is not exausted todays! There is still a reserve - but no money:sad:!

But at this time digital manufacturers will tell you : the better quality and the lower size you
can get together!

But that - you should not belive:wink:!

with regards
 
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blockend

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Lighting also effects perceived sharpness. I've been looking at a back lit scene taken towards a setting sun, with the sun flagged by my hand off camera so none of the light source hits the lens. I took the opportunity to turn the image monochrome, and the photograph is extremely sharp at 24 x 18. In colour it doesn't appear quite as sharp, but I'd happily settle for a 20" print as opposed to my 16" limit based on the lighting of the scene. I think the wiggle room for M4/3 maximum size is somewhere between chriscrawfordphoto's 20 x 16" and my preferred 16 x 12". This difference may also be product of post processing.
 

faberryman

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I think the wiggle room for M4/3 maximum size is somewhere between chriscrawfordphoto's 20 x 16" and my preferred 16 x 12". This difference may also be product of post processing.
What printer are you using at what dpi?
 
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