Mental machinations as viewer vs photographer

[awty]

does a mediocre image of a clear-cut hillside inspire anything?

If it doesn't inspire the person making the picture, then it won't inspire anyone else either.
I work on being a better picture maker, which requires a lot of practice. I have no interest in being a "photographer".

 

[Pieter12]

An artist should foremost be interested in whatever he or she is doing and not give a f&$k about what an audience thinks ... or at least that's what some people want to believe. An artist, in order to be successful, needs to generate art that resonates in some way or other with an audience. So, keeping an eye to how people will interpret your image is always necessary, if you want to make something that will actually be appreciated by anyone other than you wife and mother. But, as you should be able to understand from @grain elevator 's post above, you therefore need to perform your artistic activity within the scope of what is understandable to the audience, almost without exception. Go too far out, and no one will get even an inkling of what you were trying to convey. That might mean engaging in reproducing tropes and cliches as well as you can. Or it might come natural to you. Or, if you take photos of naked women, you're guaranteed at least some level of appreciation from the hungry horde.

The fact is, 99.99999999% of photos are looked at and assumed to "mean" nothing more than "show what I took a picture of". With landscapes, that is sometimes enough.

By successful, do you mean financially successful? Because many artists are artistically successful, but financial success might evade them. On the other hand, there are more than a few photographers who seem to have found a formula for financial success whose work is rather cliche and IMO not artistically appealing at all.

 

[MattKing]

If it doesn't inspire the person making the picture, then it won't inspire anyone else either.

I would differ.
As an example, for those of us who live around the local rain forest, photos of trees may be something we like, while those who live in arid regions where trees are rare, those photos may be very impressive indeed.
The impression created involves the photographer, the work, and the viewer.

 

[awty]

I would differ.
As an example, for those of us who live around the local rain forest, photos of trees may be something we like, while those who live in arid regions where trees are rare, those photos may be very impressive indeed.
The impression created involves the photographer, the work, and the viewer.

The point I was making is that you first have to have some passion for your picture before you can expect any one else to have.

I live 15 minutes walk to the beach, 30 minutes drive to a rainforest, 30 minutes to a major city, 1 hour to get to rural, 3 hours to get to arid, 2 day to get to a desert. You have an affinity of country just by living in it. I'm more attracted to eucalypts than pine trees, more attracted Uluru than Half Dome and I've been to neither.I'm not attracted to straight photography, this is typical of my rendering of a rainforest. If you want a wider audience beyond "photographers" then it helps to manipulate.

 

[Bill Burk]

One time a friend brought some sculptures to my home and I setup a ladder and dropcloth to photograph them. His idea was that he was interested in seeing the results as they would be my response to his art.

I had in mind Steichen’s friendship with Rodin and his photographs of Balzak.

But the feeling wasn’t there.

 

[grain elevator]

rainforest. If you want a wider audience beyond "photographers" then it helps to manipulate.

Great photo! As a photographer, I think you made it with a swing lens pano or a curved film pinhole and I find that very smart, as a viewer l, photographer or not, it gives a great sense of place.
I wonder what you mean by "manipulate" though. Just the color?

 

[awty]

Great photo! As a photographer, I think you made it with a swing lens pano or a curved film pinhole and I find that very smart, as a viewer l, photographer or not, it gives a great sense of place.
I wonder what you mean by "manipulate" though. Just the color?

Thanks, yes a basic Horizon camera.
The OP mentioned earlier about dreading to "manipulate " a picture. Matt shows an example of a picture that I'm sure is as close to exactly the way it looked as is possible, relatively speaking. That is fine if that is what you want and I'm sure Matt (and others) would have an affinity with such a picture and that's the first most important part. Getting a broader audience I think you need to get a greater "sense of place". Getting someone to relate to picture that they have no familiarity to is bloody hard, have to find some common ground.

Sometimes I manipulate very little and sometimes a lot, depending on the story I'm telling. If I can't satisfy my self there is something to say I throw it in the bin and move on. That happens a lot.

 

[Don_ih]

By successful, do you mean financially successful?

No. By success, I mean as an artist. Success for an artist is both the realization of the artwork in some at least somewhat satisfactory way and appreciation of that artwork by an audience, where the audience understands the work at least to some degree as it was intended. Money has nothing to do with it. Basically, he does what he was trying to do and the viewer "gets" it.

 

[VinceInMT]

No. By success, I mean as an artist. Success for an artist is both the realization of the artwork in some at least somewhat satisfactory way and appreciation of that artwork by an audience, where the audience understands the work at least to some degree as it was intended. Money has nothing to do with it. Basically, he does what he was trying to do and the viewer "gets" it.

I tend to disagree that the audience plays a part in the artist’s success. “Viewer completion” is certainly a factor in how a work may be interpreted and some artists might provide clues to guide the viewer such as a hint in the title but, IMO, unless the work needs to be interpreted in a certain way (maybe in the case of political art) making art for the audience just limits the possibilities for the artist.

I just finished reading Rick Rubin’s ”The Creative Act: A Way of Being” and he discusses this throughout the work, mostly in the context of removing “rules” of all sorts in order to free up creativity.

Some this goes back to another thread where there were strong opinions on whether a piece was art of completed until it was displayed to others.

I split my own efforts between drawing and photography and I make work that satisfies me with no concern for what someone might make of it. I don’t want to have to make something that someone else understands because sometimes even I don’t understand it. I get fragments of images in my mind and they follow me around, sometimes annoyingly so, and the only way to deal with them is to make the work. Frequently the work languishes half-completed and I wait for it to sort of talk to me and tell me what it needs in order to be finished.

That said, I do share what I draw on my website, FB, or Instagram. I have shared some of my photos in those places as well as here so I suppose I satisfy the “completion” piece some see as necessary to the process but during that process I think little about what might be made of it by others.

 

[MTGseattle]

@Don_ih I second your most recent reply as to an artist's success. In this I am ignoring/setting aside the notion of financial success as that requires a whole other skill-set (and possibly some luck). Networking,marketing,etc,etc.

@awty I am not anti-manipulation at all. You posted a really nice example of your work style that I referred to earlier. I humbly submit that your interpretation of that scene likely invokes a different emotional response than say a Clyde Butcher image of similar subject matter.
We have to ask ourselves if our intended goal requires that we "guide" a viewer's response through manipulation (darkroom or digital), or some other variation in our process or not.

I am at the half-way mark in Rick Rubin's book. I am somewhat unsettled by the simplicity of the writing and the relative clarity with which he arrives at his various points. I think I was expecting something complicated and "academic" perhaps?

 

[fdalegriag]

@MTGseattle I stumbled upon your post while searching for "documentary" as a keyword, so I'm sure it was mentioned somewhere in the conversation. Nevertheless, your question made got me thinking and here's what I can share. As social beings, we humans are shaped and influenced by our surroundings.

With the years, I've concluded that photography is a non-jealous discipline capable of keeping up with a myriad of interests we develop in life. When reduced to a mere tool, photography humbly becomes just a mean of expression and nothing more. For me, the enhanced meaning we give to our beloved visual craft comes from what we do with it; e.g. the people and stories we access to thanks to our cameras. Now, for the nostalgia, I would define it as part of how you select, process and present your photographs.

Hope this makes sense, thanks for opening up this conversation!

 

[VinceInMT]

I am at the half-way mark in Rick Rubin's book. I am somewhat unsettled by the simplicity of the writing and the relative clarity with which he arrives at his various points. I think I was expecting something complicated and "academic" perhaps?

Thankfully it’s not “academic.” I read that he worked on this for 8 years and I like how straight forward it is. I first read it on my Kindle as I got it from our library and was about halfway through when I ordered the hard copy which I am going through with post-it notes. There are so many gems I want to refer back to it frequently. Examples:

”Rules direct us to average behaviors. If we are aiming to create works that are exceptional, most rules don’t apply. Average is nothing to aspire to.”

”Work reveals itself as you go.”

That latter quote really had me nodding in agreement. As I mentioned in my above comment, I frequently have to get started on a project without an actual end goal and just make something and let it take me where I, or it, needs to go.

If you are looking for a more academic approach to the topic, I would suggest “Creativity: Flow and the Psychology of Discovery and Invention” by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. It goes quite deep into the psychology of the process but is highly readable. It’s from 1996.

 

[awty]

@awty I was going to cite a couple examples from your gallery offerings here, but didn't want to throw you under the bus. Since you entered the fray though... Some of your offerings I would call dark, foreboding and mysterious. Is that a feeling you are trying to elicit from viewers?

I go to where my imagination takes me. I wouldn't consider anything I do to be dark or foreboding, quite the opposite. My worst nightmare would be Ikea, thats where people who have no imagination go. I make pictures for myself, I think everyone should do that.

 

[VinceInMT]

I go to where my imagination takes me. I wouldn't consider anything I do to be dark or foreboding, quite the opposite. My worst nightmare would be Ikea, thats where people who have no imagination go. I make pictures for myself, I think everyone should do that.

I wouldn’t describe your images as “dark or foreboding” either. Maybe “dramatic.” And I do really like them and fully agree in making work for oneself.

‘This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.’ - from Shakespeare’s Hamlet

 

[Don_ih]

This above all: to thine own self be true

Said by a guy who goes on to get skewered while skulking in a curtain, eavesdropping....

 

[MTGseattle]

@VinceInMT I'm definitely not looking for a more academic or scholarly writing style. I simply surprised at the simplicity and clarity of Rubin's writing.

@awty I will cite another example of yours from the gallery "The Eclipse" is to me a moody representation of the subject. Maybe that's a better adjective to apply, Moody. You've added some extra atmosphere and interest to some of your images and case in point my reaction to them is different to that of some others and possibly not a reaction that you would have expected. I enjoy them for this.

This whole thread is what happens when I can't be out trying to make images. Call me a wimp or whatever but I'm unwilling to bust out the 8x10 in pouring rain. If I can't be engaged in photography in one way, my mind shifts to other ways. I'm not trying to suss out what it would mean to jump down the road of gallery submissions and catering to an audience (if one should cater to an audience). If one is going to head down that road, there are definitely steps to take, but that's not where I am at right now by any means.

@fdalegriag Thanks for the comments.


Poor Polonius

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Sometimes having a well-constructed landscape picture that looks like it belongs in a travel magazine or on a postcard is what works. Some people get away from it imagining they're there. Too artistic takes that away from them. Neither type is better. They just are. Do what you find comfortable. Be yourself.

 

[awty]

@awty I will cite another example of yours from the gallery "The Eclipse" is to me a moody representation of the subject. Maybe that's a better adjective to apply, Moody. You've added some extra atmosphere and interest to some of your images and case in point my reaction to them is different to that of some others and possibly not a reaction that you would have expected. I enjoy them for this.

I would say I gave it character and a little spirit. I was listening to Moby Dick at the time and that probably influenced my rendering. I love the building and have many shots of it over the years, but haven't printed it before, waiting till I was ready. At the same time I took an 8x10 and a 4x5, i might do something with them later or not. I often take many photos of places with out printing them, waiting to get the right picture. I need to have some sort of attraction to a place to make a good picture. Some times I see nothing other times I see everything.
The last picture I put in the gallery is a place I've picnic at a couple of times, it has a feel of something magical about it, cant describe in words so I tried in a picture. When I was making the print I saw an image of a face in the tree, I dont think any one else has noticed, maybe the magic is only for me.

 

[Pieter12]

I just finished reading Rick Rubin’s ”The Creative Act: A Way of Being” and he discusses this throughout the work, mostly in the context of removing “rules” of all sorts in order to free up creativity.

Totally off-topic. I have seen photos of Rubin's Milubu home, and the walls are bare. No art whatsoever. Kind of shocking for a creative person. Minimalism? Can't be for acoustics, the house if full of hard surfaces.

 

[awty]

I am at the half-way mark in Rick Rubin's book. I am somewhat unsettled by the simplicity of the writing and the relative clarity with which he arrives at his various points. I think I was expecting something complicated and "academic" perhaps?

Clearly the trick is to grow a big bushy beard and talk a lot of BS.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Clearly the trick is to grow a big bushy beard and talk a lot of BS.

And wear a worn broad brimmed hat.

 

[MattKing]

Clearly the trick is to grow a big bushy beard and talk a lot of BS.

If it is BS, it certainly seems to be BS that has resonated well with a lot of remarkable musicians!

 

[MTGseattle]

@awty I dig it. "atmospere" is a good term to apply. It's interesting that you pulled inspiration for a visual medium from a written(spoken) one. I really had to sit and think for a spell whether that had happened for me or not. I read a fair amount, so I feel like it must have but not recently. Wanting to echo/capture/outright steal the feeling from various scenes in movies however is a very frequent occurrence for me.

 

[awty]

If it is BS, it certainly seems to be BS that has resonated well with a lot of remarkable musicians!

BS sells.
We are told what to like and what we shouldn't.
Honestly think creative people just need the right environment to get their best and that will differ from person to person.
I do like the Johnny Cash sessions and I think that was a matter of putting him where he needed to be.

 

[awty]

And wear a worn broad brimmed hat.

I'm a terrible b/s'ter, that's why I don't have much money.