medium format SLR help needed

[Neil Grant]

..the 500mm RB is a lot bigger and heavier than the 180/250mm lenses, and slower too - f/8 for the C-version. It's recommended to be used with a supporting bracket to take the strain off the bellows. The 360mm is mildly larger/heavier than the C-250mm and needs no support bracket. The small amount of wildlife photography I do is with a 'narrower angle' set up, namely a Tokina 400mm prime and a crop-frame mirrorless.

 

[Wallendo]

I use a Mamiya m645 and m645 1000s. I own both a prism finder and waist level finder. The battery is only used for the shutter. These cameras have two shutter release buttons, one on the top and one in the front - this could be a useful feature with the orthopedic problems you have mentioned. These bodies are cheap enough that you can buy two bodies and always keep a backup with you - the body alone is not very heavy.

I have had one m645 fail on me unexpectedly after working well for a year or so. I have looked at that as a risk for buying used equipment on eBay at the lowest possible prices, and not a reflection of Mamiya quality

 

[Sirius Glass]

Its why Im here, trying to get help from people who USE the cameras. And you guys all seem to be pretty damned decent. Even with someone who only knows enough about the subject to be very dangerous.

Im not exactly concerned about weight at all. My nikon D7500 weighs 1.41 lb / 640 g (Body Only) and my sigma 150-600mm contemporary weighs 4.03 lb / 1830 g. Its a hefty load, prone to make your arms and pectorals ripple like the men shown on covers of a romance novel, but THAT has been my go to setup for the last year. Sure i havent been able to do photo work this winter very often but its what i have ready to go.

And I seem to be confusing the group so I will relist my thinking on the subject.

I need the ability to have an actual view finder, the waist level view finder is a negative for me as the EXPERIENCE i have with my Diacord G is less then good. With my eyes I have to put it on a flat solid stationary surface and get about 3 inches away from it with my eye in order to get things FOCUSED. Sure i can SEE through it fine, but to get a photo that doesnt look like big foot running through the woods its HARD.

Electronics are an unpleasant fact of life. The newest and best of the pentax and mamiya and bronica lines have no option but to embrace built in electronics like auto focus and light meters. MY CONCERN is that the amount of money for it, makes me want a camera that can work even if the light meter dies or the auto focus system goes kaput.

And I am concerned about basic reliability of the camera as i have READ on filmphotography forum threads were the person gets a medium format SLR, and while winding to frame 4 of their third roll of film in it, something in the film mechanism goes SNAP and they have a paperweight.

What id like to do, wildlife photography. And perhaps someday human photography. But the immediate out come id like is to sit on my back deck and get some good pictures of a baby deer and momma or a nice close up of a chickadee, and if its sharp enough, enlarge it out to a poster and put it on my wall.

Electronics is not a fact of life in the film world. There are many all mechanical cameras: Hasselblad, Rollei, Leica, Minolta. You will find many here that avoid electronic cameras on one format or another.

 

[bluechromis]

My suggestion is not a SLR, but it has some characteristics of SLR's. The Mamiya C series of TLR's have interchangeable lens, can use a prism finder and do not require electronics. They are also affordable.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

1. Affordable
2. Fully mechanical
3. SLR

You can pick 2 of those, not all three. Also the formats of 120 are vastly different. 645, 66, 67, etc... Surely frames per roll are a consideration as is aspect ratio.

My advice, pick the SLR of SLRs. The Pentax 67 or 6x7. Yes they need a battery, but the system and lenses are both excellent and affordable. Get one and send it to www.pentaxs.com for overhaul/CLA. Expect that it will continue to work for another decade or two after that. The 6x7 or 67 with the non-meter prism would be my advice. A Hasselblad is the other obvious 120 mechanical SLR but they've gotten too expensive and they're just a prone to issues as an electronic camera. The lenses are overpriced generally considering the quantity of them out there.

A Rollei 2.8F from Magicflex is another good choice. It can take a prism, and the lenses are vary affordable because you get a two for the price of one, AND no option to switch.

 

[wiltw]

Electronics is not a fact of life in the film world. There are many all mechanical cameras: Hasselblad, Rollei, Leica, Minolta. You will find many here that avoid electronic cameras on one format or another.

I would not be able to reliably cite exactly when, SLRs of most formats before a certain year (let's say shortly before 1980) were mostly mechanically timed shutters and the battery only served to power the meter, if one was present in the body.
After a certain point almost everyone (Hasselblad being one exception) went to electronically timed (in body) shutters, and increasing sophistication in automation functions (motor winder,, auto load film, in-viewfinder display of more and more information, TTL flash metering).

 

[Paul Howell]

My suggestion is not a SLR, but it has some characteristics of SLR's. The Mamiya C series of TLR's have interchangeable lens, can use a prism finder and do not require electronics. They are also affordable.

I think Mamiya made a 250 some what slow at 6.3 about the same as a 135mm on 35mm in terms of angle of view, although somewhat awkward could be used for wildlife.

 

[Maris]

The best medium format all mechanical camera ever made is the Mamiya RB67 in any of its versions.
The weight is irrelevant because the camera is on a tripod. No one pursuing the advantages of roll film, incredible detail and image integrity, will hand hold such a camera and accept soft images from random camera shake.
No medium format SLR is really suitable for serious action, sport, or wildlife photography. There are better, smaller, and cheaper cameras for that.
All Mamiya RB67 lenses offer close focussing via the extendable bellows. No extension tubes are required for face portraits.
The revolving back means no heavy, bulky, expensive prism is required. Just click between portrait and landscape aspects with a flick of the wrist.
The RB67 lenses need no focussing helix so they are simple, reliable, and easy to service. The leaf shutters offer flash synch at all speeds.
If you are making rectangular pictures, not squares, then the RB67 negative is about 50% bigger than what a Hasselblad delivers and I reckon it shows in the pictures.
For what you get the Mamiya RB67 system components are cheap.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

No one pursuing the advantages of roll film, incredible detail and image integrity, will hand hold such a camera and accept soft images from random camera shake.

Maybe not an SLR but I hand hold my Mamiya 7ii a lot of the time and get good results.

 

[Paul Howell]

In the day, 50s and 60s TLR were used by PJ who shot off tripod, some of the iconic sports shots were made with TLR, no tripod.

 

[grat]

There are at least two people on youtube that hand-hold their Fuji GX680. Anything's possible.

The Bronica SQ-A requires batteries for the shutter speed, has a decent viewfinder (with AE, if you want), and is generally reliable. It does need occasional attention to a couple pairs of contacts.

The mechanical aspect, I find to be pretty solid. The S2A, while older, is totally mechanical.

A truly crazy option would include the mini Graphics-- ground glass or rangefinder for focus, sheet holders or 120 roll film, you pick your format and lens.

 

[hsandler]

Personally, I have had Bronica SQ-A and ETRSi cameras and the battery dependency has not worried me. Failures in these cameras usually do not appear to be the electronic shutters, but rather mechanical issues with the backs or winding mechanisms. I don't think the overall reliability of these cameras is particularly worse than comparable-budget mechanical alternatives like Pentacon, Kiev, Kowa or Bronica S series. Based on your interest in wildlife, meaning long lenses, I would go for 645 format if possible, but I think all native 645 format cameras with prism finders are battery-dependent.The Bronica ETRSi with the speed grip and prism was a particularly ergonomic package that could be used with wildlife, although frankly, there is a reason most film wildlife photography is shot with 35mm SLRs.



Duck by Howard Sandler, on Flickr (Bronica SQ-A; 150mm lens)


Downy Woodpecker Female by Howard Sandler, on Flickr (Bronica SQ-A, 150mm lens)

 

[Danner]

Nvrmnd.

 

[Pioneer]

An option I haven't heard discussed is the older Graflex SLR models that used 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 sheet film. Film availability has improved, it is available from Adox, Arista EDU Ultra and Ilford, but it is only black and white. These cameras really are loads of fun to use but it does take a willingness to step back in time a little bit in your thinking and achieving any speed takes some honest practice. Lenses in barrels are plentiful so you should have no problem finding a lens you will like.

One thing for sure, there are absolutely no batteries to be found on them anywhere.

I use the Graflex and enjoy it, but I also use the Pentax 645. Both cameras are awesome but the Pentax is certainly a lot faster to work with and it uses much more convenient roll film. But it does take 6 AA batteries to keep it working. Electronics brings greater convenience for sure, but not all photography is about convenience.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I suspect that Nick Brandt would have a radically different opinion than Maris about the suitability of MF SLR's for wildlife photography, especially the Pentax 6X7. Pentax once even made an underwater housing for it. Admittedly, I generally use a tripod with this camera. But I have done numerous handheld shots with it, including of wildlife. It's also a great aerial camera. My brother owned a couple of expensive Rollei SL66's, but preferred to borrow my P67 for its better ergonomics.

Nowadays, if I'm going to handshoot or go ultralight, I reach for my Fuji 6X9 rangefinders. But rangefinders don't offer the kind telephoto lens selection or convenience like Pentax and other MF SLR's do. But at today's bargain prices, you can afford to own both (unless you go for a pricey Mamiya 7 or undeserved cult-status Hassie system).

 

[tballphoto]

And we're back to RB67, at least for what I'm reading that you want.

I have 645, 6x6 (via Graflex 22 roll film back) and 6x7 backs for mine. The 6x6 doesn't provide dark slide interlock and because the other 120 backs are first-gen (Pro rather than ProS or ProSD) they don't have double exposure interlock, but aside from the meter in my chimney finder, these are battery free, 100% mechanical -- and with the shutter in the lens, if a shutter goes down a lens switch will get me back to a working shutter, so I don't have to poke at it and try to figure out if it's broken or just jammed when I should be composing and exposing.

Lenses range from 37mm fisheye, 50mm rectilinear, to 360 or 500 mm (I've got a 50, 90, and 250, plus a 2x teleconverter). The 50 and 65 are retrofocus (37mm too), 90 and 127 normal, 150 and longer are "tele" -- with the result that the balance and weight don't change much as you swap lenses, and all of them except the fisheye take 77mm filters. Put on a prism finder (under $100 when I got mine) and left hand grip (includes a trigger with simple lever to operate the body mounted shutter release), with a good strap (special strap lugs are easy to get on eBay) it's a fairly comfortable walking-around camera that really builds upper body strength -- and because of the rotating back, there's no turning the camera on its side to switch from vertical to horizontal.

Film backs are repairable items, and of course they come off quickly and easily in case of problems. If you get extra film backs, you can preload and swap backs in seconds, or carry one with fast, one with slow, or one color and one B&W. Film backs are reasonably priced, too (though the 645 is probably higher, because it's less common, and the Mamiya 6x6 back is pretty rare, any 2x3 Graflok mount film back will work, with loss of dark slide and double exposure interlock functions). There's even (intermittently) an Instax back for the system.

From what I am seeing online, the RB 67 does seem to be the camera that fits my needs. I just have a few questions on it that have me a tad confused.

1. I have seen it stated that the bellows focusing system allows ANY lens to become a MACRO lens. Is this true?

2. How many options for view finder are there? I KNOW about the standard Waist Level Viewfiender, and the Eye Level prism. But I have seen at least one youtube video that appears to have a "chimney with light meter" mounted on one, but it might have been a later rZ67 model.

3. Do you think 1/400 shutter speed is an actual hindrance to getting photographs when you consider that it works fine with reciprocal aperture/shutter speed/iso systems like hazy 8?

 

[Donald Qualls]

1. I have seen it stated that the bellows focusing system allows ANY lens to become a MACRO lens. Is this true?

I wouldn't say any lens, but the built-in bellows will let you get to 1:1 with a 65mm, and pretty close to it with a 90mm. There are also extension tubes in 45mm and 82mm length, which will let you get well past 1:1 with a 90mm, or even a 127mm.

2. How many options for view finder are there? I KNOW about the standard Waist Level Viewfiender, and the Eye Level prism. But I have seen at least one youtube video that appears to have a "chimney with light meter" mounted on one, but it might have been a later rZ67 model.

In addition to the standard waist level finder (which has a magnifier that flips up, like most TLR finders) there are chimney finders with adjustable diopter, with and without meter, and prism finders, with and without meters (metered prisms are less common than metered chimneys). Few if any of these will have a usable rubber eye cup (been forty years since they quit making them), but that's a luxury, not a necessity.

3. Do you think 1/400 shutter speed is an actual hindrance to getting photographs when you consider that it works fine with reciprocal aperture/shutter speed/iso systems like hazy 8?

Given that the RB67 has one of the smoothest mirror actions in the known universe, and supports mirror prefire (it's a little Byzantine to operate, with separate releases on body and lens, but it works well), I don't see 1/400 maximum shutter as a significant limitation unless you're trying to hand hold with a 250 or 360 lens mounted. Even then, due to the weight of the camera, if you have a left hand grip you should get more good shots than bad. Probably the worst limitation is the way the shutter works for longer than 1 second (prefire mirror, fire shutter, then either move the speed setting ring or recock the body to close the shutter), but you won't use exposures that long for wildlife, and it's not difficult, just odd, for things like landscapes and night shots.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Personally, I have had Bronica SQ-A and ETRSi cameras and the battery dependency has not worried me. Failures in these cameras usually do not appear to be the electronic shutters, but rather mechanical issues with the backs or winding mechanisms. I don't think the overall reliability of these cameras is particularly worse than comparable-budget mechanical alternatives like Pentacon, Kiev, Kowa or Bronica S series. Based on your interest in wildlife, meaning long lenses, I would go for 645 format if possible, but I think all native 645 format cameras with prism finders are battery-dependent.The Bronica ETRSi with the speed grip and prism was a particularly ergonomic package that could be used with wildlife, although frankly, there is a reason most film wildlife photography is shot with 35mm SLRs.

Nice shots Howard. Sharp nice tones.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

From what I am seeing online, the RB 67 does seem to be the camera that fits my needs. I just have a few questions on it that have me a tad confused.

1. I have seen it stated that the bellows focusing system allows ANY lens to become a MACRO lens. Is this true?

2. How many options for view finder are there? I KNOW about the standard Waist Level Viewfiender, and the Eye Level prism. But I have seen at least one youtube video that appears to have a "chimney with light meter" mounted on one, but it might have been a later rZ67 model.

3. Do you think 1/400 shutter speed is an actual hindrance to getting photographs when you consider that it works fine with reciprocal aperture/shutter speed/iso systems like hazy 8?

1. Here's details on macro shots with just the various lenses.


Here are the crop values for each lens with the two extension tubes.

2. Here is a picture flow diagram of all the various accessories lenses etc. It's for the RB67, not the RZ.


3. I shoot landscapes mainly so I always have my RB67 on a tripod.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

The sportsfinder is nice if you shoot fast handheld sports. Keep in mind that the waist level finders reverse the image in the ground glass left to right. I found that annoying especially when you;re trying to track the subject. I always move the wrong way. So I got an eye-level finder that sees like an SLR 35mm camera which I'm more used to. The flow diagram in 2. doesn't show clearly the magnifier option that you can get with the eye-level viewfinder. I have both and they work well to help in critical focus.

 

[Paul Howell]

You can buy a Mamiya 67 as a complete kit on Ebay, if buy from KEH and a few other sites you need to build a kit as KEH usually sells body, backs, finders and lens separately. In your case that can be an advantage as you can pick the finder you want along with a longer starting lens, like a 250 range to get you started with wildlife.

 

[Donald Qualls]

You can buy a Mamiya 67 as a complete kit on Ebay, if buy from KEH and a few other sites you need to build a kit as KEH usually sells body, backs, finders and lens separately. In your case that can be an advantage as you can pick the finder you want along with a longer starting lens, like a 250 range to get you started with wildlife.

Not to mention KEH has a grading system that's a big step up from "EXC +++++" or "Minty!"

 

[tballphoto]

I will admit I have had mixed results with KEH. Bought one good lens from them. And then bought a lens on their ebay that was well, frozen open when it arrived. They took care of it, but I expected a bit more. Though I did purchase a camera from a camera shop/repair place started in 1968 in New York, that when arrived the safety lock on the shutter mechanism, canon FTBn, was frozen in the unlocked mode. The people who "repair" the cameras for resale claimed to NOT know the safety lock is supposed to turn.

Appears im on the hunt for a good RB67 after all. Now that option in finders is like a kid in a candy store

 

[wiltw]

From what I am seeing online, the RB 67 does seem to be the camera that fits my needs. I just have a few questions on it that have me a tad confused.

1. I have seen it stated that the bellows focusing system allows ANY lens to become a MACRO lens. Is this true?

Any lens mounted on the RB67 will FOCUS CLOSER, to macro distances.
But true macro lenses have the following characteristics

• optimized for focusing even at macro distances
• flat field corrected for macro shots of flat objects

'Focusing closer' with a conventional lens does NOT have the above advantages in optical design. Mamiya does have lenses that are called 'Macro' in the name, and they will have the above advantages in their design.

 

[Donald Qualls]

And another comes aboard. Might well be the most versatile mechanical camera ever built. That chart posted above had some stuff on it I didn't even know about -- like C series plate backs, M adapters to go on the P adapter.

I thought about getting a 2x3 Grafmatic for mine, but there are so few film choices...