Matching Barrel lenses to Copal shutters

[Ardpatrick]

I happen to have a few Copal 0 and Copal 1 shutters to hand in good condition. How would I identify a process lens that would fit these shutters? I’ve been reading about lenses like the Rodenstock Apo-Ronar that may be available inexpensively in barrel mounts.

Is it foolish to try and assemble a modern (ish) 300 mm lens for use in 4x5 through this path? Or should I just bite the bullet and buy a Nikon m 300mm f9?

 

[Dan Fromm]

I happen to have a few Copal 0 and Copal 1 shutters to hand in good condition. How would I identify a process lens that would fit these shutters? I’ve been reading about lenses like the Rodenstock Apo-Ronar that may be available inexpensively in barrel mounts.

Is it foolish to try and assemble a modern (ish) 300 mm lens for use in 4x5 through this path? Or should I just bite the bullet and buy a Nikon m 300mm f9?

Well, you could look at manufacturers' propaganda to learn which of their process lenses' cells are sometimes direct fits in which shutters. To find the brochures, see the link in the first post in this https://www.largeformatphotography....to-look-for-information-on-LF-(mainly)-lenses discussion. I just checked, Schneider gives the info you want for G-Clarons, Rodenstock doesn't seem to give it for Apo-Ronars.

I believe I've seen the R'stock info you want, if I did I didn't bookmark it. For Apo-Ronars, try a google search on Apo-Ronar and shutter. Beware, some Apo-Ronars were made in versions whose cells are direct fits in shutters and in versions whose cells aren't. In general, other makers' process lenses' cells are not direct fits in shutters.

Also see https://skgrimes.com/lens-mounting-to-shutter/, which is in the list.

Finally, consider front-mounting.

 

[Ardpatrick]

Thank you Dan. I’ll have to digest all of this.

A side question: I notice quite a few quality lenses (Apo-Ronar f.x.) are available less expensively in Sinar DB shutters. Do you have any sense of the feasibility of switching the front & rear cells from the Sinar DB shutter onto one of my Copal shutters?

 

[xkaes]

As Dan points out, it depends on the lens -- the focal length, the maximum aperture. For example, the narrowest barrel lens from Fuji has a rear thread of 56mm -- the front thread of a #1 shutter is 40mm. You can use a step-up ring, but you'll lose more than half of the light. A #3 shutter has a 58mm front thread, so that would work with a thin step-down ring -- but only for the narrowest Fuji.

The longest Fuji barrel lens (420mm) has a 90mm thread!!!

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/byseries.htm

 

[Dan Fromm]

Thank you Dan. I’ll have to digest all of this.

A side question: I notice quite a few quality lenses (Apo-Ronar f.x.) are available less expensively in Sinar DB shutters. Do you have any sense of the feasibility of switching the front & rear cells from the Sinar DB shutter onto one of my Copal shutters?

Check, but I'm pretty sure that DB shutters' threading conforms to the Compur/Copal standard. See https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?26781-Sinar-DB-Shutter-Lenses.

 

[lobitar]

I don't think it's easy to find an Apo-Ronar in barrel to fit these shutters, even if perhaps not impossible. However, it is or used to be much more easy (and cheap) to find Schneider G-Clarons in barrel: 150mm to fit the no. 0 shutter, and 210/240/270/(305?) to fit the no. 1 copal. They are all quite good, you may even be lucky to hit a prime sample (I think the quality control for G-Clarons is not quite up to Rodenstock standard? Speaking from experience, since I've tried a few).

 

[Ardpatrick]

Check, but I'm pretty sure that DB shutters' threading conforms to the Compur/Copal standard. See https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?26781-Sinar-DB-Shutter-Lenses.

Thanks both. And Dan thanks for the follow up post that seems positive on the DB to Compur / Copal standard.

This could become quite the rabbit hole for an optical layperson like me. The option of picking up a lens in a Sinar DB shutter for about 50% of the retail price of the same mounted in a Copal shutter seems tempting, whereas going the Process Lens route seems more complicated. For one, the Sinar DB mounted Apo-Ronar that interests me will likely be MC coated, and generally specced for use in the field (I've read posters saying that there is an optical difference between an App-Ronar made for a repro work vs one mounted in a shutter - although I have no way of verifying this really). I'm also interested in using these shutters, which have been sitting in a box for 15 years.

I note the chart on Page 6 of this Sinar document:

https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/00930/00930.pdf

It seems to indicate that the Apo-Ronar 300 f.9 is:
(a) a size 1 shutter (Eqv. Copal 1?)
(b) Widely compatible with Sinar DB, Compur, and Copal shutters.

I'll keep reading.

 

[Ardpatrick]

One more thing - my Copal 1 shutters have aperture scales open to f5.6. Is that an issue with an f.9 lens? It seems according to Bob Salomon and others on this thread that one can order a new aperture scale direct from Rodenstock:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?141610-Can-lenses-in-Sinar-DB-mount-be-remounted-in-copal-shutters/page2

 

[Ardpatrick]

I don't think it's easy to find an Apo-Ronar in barrel to fit these shutters, even if perhaps not impossible. However, it is or used to be much more easy (and cheap) to find Schneider G-Clarons in barrel: 150mm to fit the no. 0 shutter, and 210/240/270/(305?) to fit the no. 1 copal. They are all quite good, you may even be lucky to hit a prime sample (I think the quality control for G-Clarons is not quite up to Rodenstock standard? Speaking from experience, since I've tried a few).

Thanks. Good suggestion. Originally I looked at G-Claron's in Copal shutters for sale online and they were expensive - Nikon M prices. That sent me back to Rodenstock. I'll look out for G-Claron's in Sinar DB shutters too, or in Barrel. Might be more affordable. My existing kit is very pluralistic - Nikon / Rodenstock / Schneider etc. They all work.

 

[xkaes]

I have no idea if you can order new scales from Rodenstock, but you might be able to get them made elsewhere or find them used or re-use the one you have (with changes) or re-align it or just mentally adjust for it. You've got lots of options.

 

[Ardpatrick]

I have no idea if you can order new scales from Rodenstock, but you might be able to get them made elsewhere or find them used or re-use the one you have (with changes) or re-align it or just mentally adjust for it. You've got lots of options.

True. It’s hardly a priority but it came up in the thread I shared and I was surprised it was even possible (still in 2018!).

 

[_T_]

I know you already have the shutters and are trying to make use of them but it sounds like you’re trying to get the most out of your money and that leads me to suggest Fujinon.

They have a couple different 300mm f/5.6 lenses that would work. You can find them sometimes complete with appropriate shutter and aperture scales for about what you’d pay for a schneider or rodenstock that you would still have to adapt.

Don’t know if that would interest you but I thought it would be helpful to offer up for consideration.

 

[OAPOli]

Schneider made barrel lenses with the same threads as shuttered lenses. Cells will fit in a shutter, the barrel mounts on a board with the corresponding retaining ring. Super-Angulon, Symmar-S, Xenar and Xenotar.

Pacific Rim Camera Reference Library

 

[Ardpatrick]

I know you already have the shutters and are trying to make use of them but it sounds like you’re trying to get the most out of your money and that leads me to suggest Fujinon.

They have a couple different 300mm f/5.6 lenses that would work. You can find them sometimes complete with appropriate shutter and aperture scales for about what you’d pay for a schneider or rodenstock that you would still have to adapt.

Don’t know if that would interest you but I thought it would be helpful to offer up for consideration.

Fair point T.

Normally I don’t go cheap. But you’re right - I’m trying to go cheap here as a 300mm is more a curiosity than anything I normally reach for (90-110-150-210). The more compact Fuji lens are very expensive (more so than Nikon) but maybe the f5.6 plasmat type lenses are cheaper. I’ll take a look.

 

[Ardpatrick]

Schneider made barrel lenses with the same threads as shuttered lenses. Cells will fit in a shutter, the barrel mounts on a board with the corresponding retaining ring. Super-Angulon, Symmar-S, Xenar and Xenotar.

Pacific Rim Camera Reference Library

Thanks for this info.

 

[jimgalli]

Thanks for this info.

OAPOli is right. Almost none of the process lenses with the exception of Schneider G-Claron go thread for thread into Copal 0 and 1. For your Copal 0 look for a 150 G-Claron in barrel. Cheap. And for your Copal 1 shutter look for 210 240 270 and 305 G-Claron. Almost all will go thread for thread into Copal 1. There are exceptions. Earlier G-Claron in the 10 and 11 millions in 305 size were in old Compur 2 thread. You also need to measure max aperture on the Copal 1's. Many were made for Polaroid that had a 75mm lens and those have a restricted aperture. Like 12mm or similar and that restraint is too much for practical use with G-Claron. I just gave you information for free that I wasted many hundreds of dollars learning by my own practical experimentation over a long time period. Do with it what you will. No Rodenstock Gerogon or any other - 'gon in barrel goes thread for thread into Copal. The G-Claron's are pretty much it. But nicely, they are superb, so worth the effort. But at today's deflated prices I doubt you're saving much if any.

 

[OAPOli]

My experience was with a 80mm f2.8 Xenotar. It came in a barrel mount, which was sized to fit on a no.1 board with a no.1 retaining ring. I removed the lens cells and they fit perfectly in a no.1 shutter (Copal Press and Synchro-Compur).

 

[lobitar]

OAPOli is right. Almost none of the process lenses with the exception of Schneider G-Claron go thread for thread into Copal 0 and 1. For your Copal 0 look for a 150 G-Claron in barrel. Cheap. And for your Copal 1 shutter look for 210 240 270 and 305 G-Claron. Almost all will go thread for thread into Copal 1. There are exceptions. Earlier G-Claron in the 10 and 11 millions in 305 size were in old Compur 2 thread. You also need to measure max aperture on the Copal 1's. Many were made for Polaroid that had a 75mm lens and those have a restricted aperture. Like 12mm or similar and that restraint is too much for practical use with G-Claron. I just gave you information for free that I wasted many hundreds of dollars learning by my own practical experimentation over a long time period. Do with it what you will. No Rodenstock Gerogon or any other - 'gon in barrel goes thread for thread into Copal. The G-Claron's are pretty much it. But nicely, they are superb, so worth the effort. But at today's deflated prices I doubt you're saving much if any.

Good point with respect to the Polaroid-Copals!
Also I seem to remember, that Polaroid-Copals no 1 with (Tominion or Rodenstock) lenses mounted front and aft had a flange-to-flange distance of 20,5 mm and not the normal 20,0 mm. That is, if you would mount - say a 210mm G-Claron, you would have to whittle the thickness of the shutter down with 0,5 mm.

 

[Ardpatrick]

Thank you all. Greatly appreciated. I’ll report back when I’ve sourced something and tried it out.

 

[lobitar]

Case-in-point f. using odd lenses with odd shutters: My 5x7 Plaubel mounted with old Compur-1 shutter for 2 sets of lenses. 1. the. 210 G-Claron (the left paper aperture scale) and the 300mm Apo-Ronar (right paper scale).

 

[Ardpatrick]

Thanks for this example. Good to see.

So I can surmise that the 210 G-Claron and the 300mm Apo-Ronar (at least in your version) share the same thread size - they both fit an old Compur 1 shutter? I can figure it out, but do you happen to have the diameter / thread size information?

Sorry for the pedantism, but as far as I know, I'm in a community of one shooting large format here in Dublin, so I'm wholly reliant on forums like this to draw on others experience.

 

[abruzzi]

I can’t speak to the Apo Ronar (though I did transplant a 480 into a Copal 3 without issues.. The G-Clarons all transplant to Copal/Compur shutters—150mm goes in a C0; 210, 240,270, and 305 all fit in C1. The 355 needs a C3 shutter. There is a rare 355 that having a slower max aperture (f11 vs f9) that fits a C1. I’ve remounted a bunch of them from barrels.

 

[Ardpatrick]

I can’t speak to the Apo Ronar (though I did transplant a 480 into a Copal 3 without issues.. The G-Clarons all transplant to Copal/Compur shutters—150mm goes in a C0; 210, 240,270, and 305 all fit in C1. The 355 needs a C3 shutter. There is a rare 355 that having a slower max aperture (f11 vs f9) that fits a C1. I’ve remounted a bunch of them from barrels.

Helpful!

So far, I think I'm on the look out for a G-Claron 305mm process or possibly DB shutter lens. 270 or 240 are also interesting in diminishing order. I already have a Super Symmar 210mm which I'm happy with.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Sorry for the pedantism, but as far as I know, I'm in a community of one shooting large format here in Dublin, so I'm wholly reliant on forums like this to draw on others experience.

Short answer: https://skgrimes.com/shutters/

Longer, possibly unwelcome, answer: bulletin boards are a poor medium of communication. I don't know how much you know, but you admit (congratulations) that in some areas you don't know enough. The first post in this https://www.largeformatphotography....to-look-for-information-on-LF-(mainly)-lenses discussion has a link to an annotated list of links to info of interest to, mainly, LF photographers. Most of what you don't know is buried in there. Go root around in it. By the way, some of the links are to info on shutter repair.

 

[Ardpatrick]

Thanks Dan. My dear departed father was an electrician by trade. He often observed that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I’ve owned and operated 4x5 cameras for 25+ years. But I’m new to this stuff. I greatly appreciate the generosity on here, even as I will heed your caution.