Many different questions about scanning

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alanrockwood

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When it comes to older scanners, watch out for scanners that require an SCSI connection.
I had to go through hoops to acquire a Windows 7 compatible Adaptec SCSI card in order to use a Minolta scanner. Since then, I upgraded the computer to Windows 10, and there are no Adaptec drivers for Windows 10 and that (or any?) SCSI card.
I no longer have the scanner, and I haven't gone down the rabbit hole of looking for methods to use SCSI with Windows 10.
With regard to SCSI drivers, there is a way to use a driver from an older version of Windows. I did it so I could use the SCSI interface on my fs4000us scanner. I found the method on the internet, though I don't remember the details.
 

alanrockwood

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FARE uses both hardware (infrared light) and software. I believe 3rd party software may use both. For instance Coolscans V, 5000 and 9000 uses a trade marked proprietary Digital ICE4 that Vuescan cannot use but have instead implemented their form of ICE. This was according to Ed back when I first tried it and may have since changed.
Yes, that is correct.
 
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Vincent Boman

Vincent Boman

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Is the Nikon FH-3 holder worth the cost?
I would use it with a Coolscan V that I'm looking at, and read that the FH-3 used with the MA-21 slide holder let's you scan single frames.
As I understand it, the SA-21 holder won't let you scan just one frame, is that right?
Or is the FH-3 really only for curly film strips, or if you happen to have a single image cut that the SA-21 won't take in?
 

Les Sarile

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The SA-21 needs at least two frames to feed properly.

The FH-3 + MA-21 is intended to scan 1 to 6 frame strips of unmounted 35mm film. They will hold a very curly strip of film flat but in tests that I've done, the SA-21 does a very good job. The worst case scenario applies only to the first and last frame of the strip as all the rest in the middle are held flat. Also, only about 20% of the leading or trailing edge of the strip may be ever so slightly out of focus. And, it is only mostly distinguishable if are using really grainy film like Superia 1600 or similar. So I hardly ever resorted to this combination in the tens of thousands of frames that I have scanned on the Coolscan 5000.

However, I did find a way to use that combination on some 110 film that I used to shoot as they greatly benefit from the Coolscan's high res scans. It's a little tedious but fortunately scanning takes only a few seconds per frame.

large.jpg
 
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Vincent Boman

Vincent Boman

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But can you only scan a single frame with the FH-3? Or will you be able to batch scan 6 frames with the SA-21, and then pick out one of them to scan in hi-res?
 

Les Sarile

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But can you only scan a single frame with the FH-3? Or will you be able to batch scan 6 frames with the SA-21, and then pick out one of them to scan in hi-res?

Yes, you can preview the strip you fed in and select any one or more of the frames. I use Nikonscan and I made a series of slides to show how you can make, save and retrieve settings that you can apply to the whole strip or individual frames at http://www.fototime.com/inv/B48262629CF3ECB.
Frames 1 - 5 is how to make and save the settings and frames 6 - 13 is how to apply the settings to a frame or more.
 
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Vincent Boman

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My film strips aren't curly, though I have images that I want scanned that are on the tail end of the roll.
That tail end might be as short as about a quarter of the length of six frames.
Will the SA-21 accept that short of a film strip?
 

PhilBurton

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So I have three questions about using the FH-3 with a NikonScan 5000.

Does anti-Newton Ring glass help to keep nautatives flatter?
Does Nikonscan have better support for the FH-3 than say Vuescan or Silverfast?

And third, I have a small number, probably less than 120 frames, of 127 B&W that I shot when first got a camera at age 10. I'm honestly not sure hoyw many of those negatives are worth scanning. Is there any practical, or even half-pratical way, to scan these negatives using an FH-3? I realize that I can't scan the entire negative in one pass.

Phil
 

Les Sarile

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Will the SA-21 accept that short of a film strip?
Can't say for sure. Two frames I am.

Does anti-Newton Ring glass help to keep nautatives flatter?
Does Nikonscan have better support for the FH-3 than say Vuescan or Silverfast?
And third, I have a small number, probably less than 120 frames, of 127 B&W that I shot when first got a camera at age 10. I'm honestly not sure hoyw many of those negatives are worth scanning. Is there any practical, or even half-pratical way, to scan these negatives using an FH-3? I realize that I can't scan the entire negative in one pass.

Never tried but I can't imagine antinewton glass will contribute anything unless the film is warped as opposed to just curly.
Never used 127 film but it seems too tall to fit in the FH3.
 

PhilBurton

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Can't say for sure. Two frames I am.



Never tried but I can't imagine antinewton glass will contribute anything unless the film is warped as opposed to just curly.
Never used 127 film but it seems too tall to fit in the FH3.
It is. I was just wondering about workarounds, if any. Again, I'm not sure how many of those old 127's are worth scanning. Right now I have them stored in 35 mm glassine envelopes with one side slit open. Not ideal of course.
 

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But can you only scan a single frame with the FH-3? Or will you be able to batch scan 6 frames with the SA-21, and then pick out one of them to scan in hi-res?
I don't use Nikon, but when I was looking for one it was suggested in many places that film strip holder FH-2 (older version) is much better built and one to have over FH-3. Again, this is purely from my reading not direct experience.
 
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Vincent Boman

Vincent Boman

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The worst case scenario applies only to the first and last frame of the strip as all the rest in the middle are held flat. Also, only about 20% of the leading or trailing edge of the strip may be ever so slightly out of focus.
If I understand it correctly, the first and last frame of a strip of six frames can be 20% out of focus? That doesn't sound good.
 

Les Sarile

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If I understand it correctly, the first and last frame of a strip of six frames can be 20% out of focus? That doesn't sound good.
You can reread exactly what I stated by qualifying that this only applies to very curly strip of film and it is only mostly distinguishable if are using really grainy film like Superia 1600 or similar. So if those don't apply to you - and you did say curly film was not an issue, then it would seem you don't have to worry about it.

I can understand your hesitation given that it is an investment in money and time as well as some risk getting used gear.
 
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Vincent Boman

Vincent Boman

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Oh ok, well in that case I suppose I won't need it. A couple of more questions regarding the Coolscans, how would you compare the ICE in the 5000/V and the 9000?
Any tangible difference for 35mm? And, as I understand it, the only real difference between the 5000 and the V is the scanning speed, right?
Because the difference between 14 and 16 bit doesn't really matter? Also, I want to thank you for all your help so far. The photo album you provided was great.
 

138S

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Oh ok, well in that case I suppose I won't need it. A couple of more questions regarding the Coolscans, how would you compare the ICE in the 5000/V and the 9000?
Any tangible difference for 35mm? And, as I understand it, the only real difference between the 5000 and the V is the scanning speed, right?
Because the difference between 14 and 16 bit doesn't really matter? Also, I want to thank you for all your help so far. The photo album you provided was great.

If you are not to scan MF you don't want the 9000, the 5000 is what you need.

You may consider a Plustek for 35mm, the 8100 one is under 300€

SP32-20200729-160830.jpg




This little marvel delivers 3800dpi effective , the same than the Coolscans, but it's cheap, it has warranty, no problem with future operative systems. (https://www.filmscanner.info/en/PlustekOpticFilm8100.html)

Also this cheap version has multi-exposure for dense slides and, the 8200 version has iSRD dust remover (like ICE) and BUY it because it has NEGA-FIX, the best color inversion you can dream with for color negative film.

https://plustek.com/us/products/film-photo-scanners/opticfilm-8100/

A total bargain and totally competent Pro scans.

You will need something else, as you mentioned dust, get this:

imgres.jpg

This is an HEPA air purifier (Honeywell hap-16200e or similar), better if you scan in an small room becuase it will totally remove dust from air very fast. Use it for handling negatives and for scanning, and you won't see dust in the scans. This is the way to go.

No risk with the plustek, buy it in an www shop that you can return it if does not like you, also it's new and it has warranty and official service.
 
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Les Sarile

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In the extreme dusty/scratched up cases - and Kodachrome, the 9000 + Nikonscan ICE results are better then the 5000. I have not tested the V for this since I just got it.

The 5000 advantages over the V that I know of are speed, additional accessories compatibility and whole roll scan capability.

Between 14- 16 bit only applies to TIF files as JPEG only uses 8 bit.
 

Les Sarile

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You may consider a Plustek for 35mm, the 8100 one is under 300€
This little marvel delivers 3800dpi effective , the same than the Coolscans, but it's cheap, it has warranty, no problem with future operative systems. (https://www.filmscanner.info/en/PlustekOpticFilm8100.html)

Also this cheap version has multi-exposure for dense slides and, it has iSRD dust remover (like ICE) and BUY it because it has NEGA-FIX, the best color inversion you can dream with for color negative film.
https://plustek.com/us/products/film-photo-scanners/opticfilm-8100/

As I understand it, iSRD is dust snd scratch removal only in post work and therefore software only.
Also, to achieve 3800dpi scans, you have to scan at 7200dpi mode increasing scan times to 8minutes as well as filesize. Then you have to post process for dust and scratches adding another 5 or so minutes?

By contrast, the slower Coolscan V takes 3 minutes with ICE enabled and 1 minute without ICE. The 5000 takes 50 seconds and 30 seconds correspondingly.
Also, you have to use filmholders and manually advance the frames to scan with the Plustek.

No doubt, maybe cheaper then a Coolscan V and with warranty.

BTW, how much have you used your Plustek and have tested the effectivy of iSRD?
 

Wallendo

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As I understand it, iSRD is dust snd scratch removal only in post work and therefore software only.
Also, to achieve 3800dpi scans, you have to scan at 7200dpi mode increasing scan times to 8minutes as well as filesize. Then you have to post process for dust and scratches adding another 5 or so minutes?

By contrast, the slower Coolscan V takes 3 minutes with ICE enabled and 1 minute without ICE. The 5000 takes 50 seconds and 30 seconds correspondingly.
Also, you have to use filmholders and manually advance the frames to scan with the Plustek.

No doubt, maybe cheaper then a Coolscan V and with warranty.

BTW, how much have you used your Plustek and have tested the effectivy of iSRD?
SilverFast actually has two different dust and scratch removal modules. iSRD is hardware based using the infrared channel of scanners with an IR source. There is another module SRDx which is solely software based.
My experience is that iSRD works better than the similar module in VueScan, which, although also IR based, tends to leave significant artifacts in light colored areas such as sky.
 

Les Sarile

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The links provided show no hardware involved so must be software only.

Do you have examples of what those artifacts look like?
 

138S

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As I understand it, iSRD is dust snd scratch removal only in post work and therefore software only.

Les, let me rectify the oinformation I posted. The infrared iSRD dust removal is featured in the 8200 model, but not in the 8100, and it works perfectly. I use an V850 and I tested the 8200 of a friend to learn if it would be worth to me for 35mm. It was a 8200 what I tested, not the 8100, I tested, the 8200 is a bit more expensive 280€ plust VAT

SP32-20200729-190651.jpg

The 8200 iSRD is stellar for color film which is designed to be transparent in the IR, for BW iSRX is used and this is a sftware tool.

I was considering the 8200 to complement the V850 to make a good team, both scanning at the same time, the 8200 for 35mm and the V850 for the rest.

In my experience with color negative film the V850 is able to take absolutely all image quality the film has, but for BW, if wanting a more defined grain the plustek has some advantage, and I can produce more having two scanners working in parallel, so I'm seriously considering to get a 8200.



Also, to achieve 3800dpi scans, you have to scan at 7200dpi mode increasing scan times to 8minutes as well as filesize. Then you have to post process for dust and scratches adding another 5 or so minutes?

This is true, but if you scan 4000 dpi hardware he practical loss (compared to 7200) is totally irrelevant, not many 35mm shots deserve an scan beyond 3600dpi because its difficult to get such a sharpness in a handheld shot. At 3600 dpi it takes 1:35min

...and if an exceptional shot requires/deserves 7200dpi (hardware) scan, you can do it...

When shooting 8x10" I ensure the shot is good, in a 35mm roll I usually have 1 to 4 good shots, sometimes none.



No doubt, maybe cheaper then a Coolscan V and with warranty.

A total top notch performer, so cheap that one feels like if it was stolen. Warranty, service, modern drivers... I would not buy a coolscan for more than $250, having the plustek choice: no nightmare with ancient devices.


BTW, how much have you used your Plustek and have tested the effectivy of iSRD?

Totally, what makes the job is Siverfast software, the scanner only delivers the IR image, it works perfect, exactly the same than with the Epson. This is with the 8200...
 
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alanrockwood

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Totally, what makes the job is Siverfast software, the scanner only delivers the IR image, it works perfect, exactly the same than with the Epson....

I wonder if Silverfast infrared dust removal works better than Vuescan on the Epson V750 (and related) scanners. I have not had good luck with my Epson in that regard. The dust removal keeps "missing" the dust and acting on parts of the film nearby the dust spots, so it's kind of a double whammy, missing the dust and altering the image on spots nearby the dust spots. I contacted the author of vuescan about it but did not resolve the problem.
 

Les Sarile

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Les, let me rectify the oinformation I posted. The infrared iSRD dust removal is featured in the 8200 model, but not in the 8100, and it works perfectly. I use an V850 and I tested the 8200 of a friend to learn if it would be worth to me for 35mm. It was a 8200 what I tested, not the 8100, I tested, the 8200 is a bit more expensive 280€ plust VAT

View attachment 251447

The 8200 iSRD is stellar for color film which is designed to be transparent in the IR, for BW iSRX is used and this is a sftware tool.

I was considering the 8200 to complement the V850 to make a good team, both scanning at the same time, the 8200 for 35mm and the V850 for the rest.

In my experience with color negative film the V850 is able to take absolutely all image quality the film has, but for BW, if wanting a more defined grain the plustek has some advantage, and I can produce more having two scanners working in parallel, so I'm seriously considering to get a 8200.

Interesting, the 8200i review on the same site states it's resolution is 3250dpi as opposed to 3800dpi on the 8100? But you still have to scan at 7200dpi in order to get that.
Scan times per frame is 4 minutes without iSRD and almost 10 minutes with iSRD enabled.

That site also reviewed the Epson V800/850 and conclude that you need to scan at 4800dpi in order to achieve 2300dpi and that scanning at 6400dpi doesn't achieve any more detail.
Scan times for 35mm at 4800 is 1 minute 44 seconds without ICE and 3minutes 44 seconds with ICE.

So if as you said that your V850 is able to take absolutely all image quality the film has - except b&w, then why would you get the Plustek that takes considerably longer to make a scan and requires manual intervention to advance the filmholder for each frame? Couldn't you just apply more sharpening as needed?
 

138S

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I wonder if Silverfast infrared dust removal works better than Vuescan on the Epson V750 (and related) scanners.

You may try it on your own, from the V750 serial you have a Silverfast license that includes iSRD dust removal, but you may need to upgrade the bundled version (around $50 if IIRC) if also multi-exposurewanting. The infrared dust detection is useful for color films because color dyes are transparent to the IR, so in the infrared image all dust is well detected. For BW the dust removal tool is iSRX in the Silverfast suite, the last version works pretty well.

See here min 20:32

 

albireo

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I have the Plustek. Truly amazing device for 35mm, only slightly bettered by my Minolta Scan Dual IV which produces comparable resolution with much smaller file sizes.

I truly don't get the 'speed' argument against dedicated film scanners. Probably because I'm a poor photographer, I rarely scan all 36 frames in a roll. I only scan and archive the 'keepers', which are, if I'm lucky, 5-6 photos on a 36 frame roll.

How do I know which ones are the keepers? It's easy: I do a 'preview' pass in Vuescan. It takes approximately 2 seconds to do a frame preview with the Plustek or the Minolta.

Good enough to be a keeper? Scan.
Bad picture? Next!
 

138S

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Interesting, the 8200i review on the same site states it's resolution is 3250dpi as opposed to 3800dpi on the 8100?

True... I guess that something is flawed in that 8200i rating, taking a flawed rating from the former 7600i, when the 7400i rating also used for the (successor) 8100i reaches 3800dpi effective, resolving element 6.2 for sure.


Scan times per frame is 4 minutes without iSRD and almost 10 minutes with iSRD enabled.

You are right, but in practice for most of the situations you won't notice any enhacement from scanning beyond 3600dpi (taking 1:25min), usually images in the negative have other limitations. First the situations where the film itself can record more than 50lp/mm at extintion are totally exceptional, then we shot 35mm handheld, we are in the DOF rather in perfect focus...

Of course a shot can be exceptionally sharp, and bebefiting from scanning with the plustek at 4800, but any enhacement beyond that point will really small.

Yes, the Plustek is slow at 7200 dpi, but the situations where you do that are exceptional, not everyday everyone makes a 1m high quality print in a lightjet. But the day you want that the Plustek throws 3800dpi effective, which is amazing for such a cheap and trouble-free machine.


Instead the Coolscan is a very pro machine delivering a very optimized image where every bit of information transmitted through the cable is significative, drawback is cost and difficult/expensive service of an ancient machine.

Of course the Plustek lacks the Pro level of the Coolscan, but amazingly it delivers Pro results when required.



That site also reviewed the Epson V800/850 and conclude that you need to scan at 4800dpi in order to achieve 2300dpi and that scanning at 6400dpi doesn't achieve any more detail.

The Epson resolves 2900 dpi effective in the horizontal axis and 2300 in the vertical axis, as every flatbed resolving power is lower in carriage motion direction. In the Epson film flatness and optimal holder height adjustment is critical for optimal results. The new holders V800 have ANR glass to ensure flatness and adjustable height, an accurate scanning allows great results. Think that if the film height falls only 1.2mm from the optimal position you loss 50% of the resolving power.




So if as you said that your V850 is able to take absolutely all image quality the film has - except b&w, then why would you get the Plustek that takes considerably longer to make a scan and requires manual intervention to advance the filmholder for each frame? Couldn't you just apply more sharpening as needed?

Not only the V850, even the V700 is able to take all Image Quality of Kodak Portra 160, this has been demonstrated and if you want we can debate that. Color negative films were optimized nearly two decades ago to be very easy to scan in high production digital Labs and Minilabs.

Sharpening never increases resolving power, just it makes the image look better.

Many Pro scanners have very smart digital procedures to deliver a very well optimized image, sometimes those features connot even be disabled, those features are essential for productivity in a commercial environement. The Epson case is different, this is not Pro gear, it is prosumer gear, you always need to refine sharpening, but not to increase resolving power, you do that to manually refine the image like Pro machines do automaticly.



I have the Plustek. Truly amazing device for 35mm, only slightly bettered by my Minolta Scan Dual IV which produces comparable resolution with much smaller file sizes.

Yes... The Plustek 120 is very expensive, but the 35mm is a total steal, of course it's not pro gear, but delivering Pro results when required.
 
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