Mamiya vs Bronica (645) Who's got the better 55mm and 80mm?

[MattKing]

The others I don't know about, except I seem to remember the Mamiya 645 Super body is flimsy and plasticky?

When the Mamiya 645 Super was introduced, it was the first model that offered removable backs. It was designed and marketed for the wedding photographer market, and to that end a much more compact and usable motor winder was introduced at the same time. There were a lot of those cameras sold and heavily used by those photographers - they weren't in any way flimsy or plasticky, although the outer body covering is of a material that looks more modern (less metallic) than preceding models.
The issue with the 645 Super is that the gearing designed for it ended up not being robust enough to withstand many years of use with the motor winder. If you find one that was heavily used that way, it could have problems.
The gearing was made robust in subsequent models.
All of that line need to be checked for wear on the mirror stops. Those were designed to be checked and replaced when worn as a part of the regular maintenance prescribed for the cameras. Mamiya is of course no longer supplying parts, so a market for the manufacture of after market parts such as the mirror stops has grown up.
Similar concerns regarding service reparability apply to Bronica and, to a lesser extent, Hasselblad.

 

[gone]

I'm going to differ on this, because it will result in arguing about how many pixels can dance on the head of a pin .

There are 12 pixels per pin. Unless someone is shooting a LF pin, in which case there are 23, but you can usually fit 25 if you're careful and none fall off.

 

[wiltw]

I have a general sense already of what I like and dislike about the systems themselves, but I am less clear on who has the better lenses in these two focal ranges. Obviously better is subjective but I'm interested in those subjective things.

This discussion of lens IQ is further made complicated by the fact that Bronica had several lines of lenses over the years, and one needs to differentiate which specific series of Bronica lenses for the ETR/ETRS/ETRSi bodies are under discussion and comparison with Mamiya 645 lenses...in the case of the 75mm lens it came in three versions in history, the 75, the 75-II, and the 75 PE

 

[MattKing]

The Mamiya 645 lenses also evolved somewhat over the 31 years that the cameras were produced. Some optical designs were improved over time. In some cases they got smaller and lighter over time - the 45mm lens being an example of both.

 

[lobitar]

When the Mamiya 645 Super was introduced, it was the first model that offered removable backs. It was designed and marketed for the wedding photographer market, and to that end a much more compact and usable motor winder was introduced at the same time. There were a lot of those cameras sold and heavily used by those photographers - they weren't in any way flimsy or plasticky, although the outer body covering is of a material that looks more modern (less metallic) than preceding models.
The issue with the 645 Super is that the gearing designed for it ended up not being robust enough to withstand many years of use with the motor winder. If you find one that was heavily used that way, it could have problems.
The gearing was made robust in subsequent models.
All of that line need to be checked for wear on the mirror stops. Those were designed to be checked and replaced when worn as a part of the regular maintenance prescribed for the cameras. Mamiya is of course no longer supplying parts, so a market for the manufacture of after market parts such as the mirror stops has grown up.
Similar concerns regarding service reparability apply to Bronica and, to a lesser extent, Hasselblad.

Thank you for this exposition!

 

[L_E_Miller]

Perhaps off topic, but just for the record - my Pentax 645 has a 3-lens set (55 -75-150) that I think is hard to better for quality (both optical and mechanical). Of course, the Pentax is entirely battery dependent and don't feature mags. The others I don't know about, except I seem to remember the Mamiya 645 Super body is flimsy and plasticky?

I like the Pentax but I want interchangeable backs and a waist level finder.

 

[MattKing]

I like the Pentax but I want interchangeable backs and a waist level finder.

Waist level finders with 6x4.5 cameras are fairly rare, because unless you are willing to limit yourself to photos with horizontal, landscape orientation, they are very limiting.

 

[L_E_Miller]

Waist level finders with 6x4.5 cameras are fairly rare, because unless you are willing to limit yourself to photos with horizontal, landscape orientation, they are very limiting.

The Bronica and Mamiya 645 systems both have them

 

[MattKing]

The Bronica and Mamiya 645 systems both have them

I know - I have one for my Mamiya.
But when the camera has a waist level finder mounted, and you turn it on its side to view a subject in portrait orientation, you end up needing to have your eye beside (not above or behind) the camera, you must face in a direction 90 degrees away from the subject, and the viewing image is upside down.

 

[Jay Schrotenboer]

The Bronica and Mamiya 645 systems both have them

I know - I have one for my Mamiya.
But when the camera has a waist level finder mounted, and you turn it on its side to view a subject in portrait orientation, you end up needing to have your eye beside (not above or behind) the camera, you must face in a direction 90 degrees away from the subject, and the viewing image is upside down.

@MattKing is saying that it would be more difficult to find one of those cameras with a waist level finder because the difficulty they impose means that original owners either didn’t buy them or didn’t use them and likely lost them. The finders are out there, but they are relatively rare. This also tends to make them expensive to buy separate.

 

[L_E_Miller]

I know - I have one for my Mamiya.
But when the camera has a waist level finder mounted, and you turn it on its side to view a subject in portrait orientation, you end up needing to have your eye beside (not above or behind) the camera, you must face in a direction 90 degrees away from the subject, and the viewing image is upside down.

Yes, I understand. But its still a feature I want for my purposes.

 

[L_E_Miller]

@MattKing is saying that it would be more difficult to find one of those cameras with a waist level finder because the difficulty they impose means that original owners either didn’t buy them or didn’t use them and likely lost them. The finders are out there, but they are relatively rare. This also tends to make them expensive to buy separate.

Yes I have priced them out they are a little pricey, but I still plan on getting one.

 

[Evergreen States]

Tomorrow I'll try to upload some photos that I took with the Bronica 75mm ƒ/2.8 EII about five years ago so you can see a few examples of the rendering.

 

[flavio81]

I have started and stopped medium format a few times over the years -- This time I want to try something smaller so I'm looking 645. Currrently I'm stuck between the Bronicas and the manual focus Mamiyas.

I'm mostly just interested in having a 55mm and 80mm as my focal lengths. Maaaaybe a 150mm. So some good information about that would probably make my mind up for me.

Bronica, Mamiya, Pentax... they all make great lenses.

But IMO the Bronica lenses for the ETR are a bit better finished/built than the ones for the Mamiya 645 system.

I like my 50/2.8 PE lens. And the 150mm lenses for the ETR system, like the 150/3.5 MC and the 150/3.5 PE, are splendid.

The only thing I don't like are the 5-bladed diaphragm on them. Otherwise they'd be perfect.

 

[flavio81]

Tomorrow I'll try to upload some photos that I took with the Bronica 75mm ƒ/2.8 EII about five years ago so you can see a few examples of the rendering.

It's beautiful. That lens has beautiful rendering. I'm looking at mine now, it has smiled at me and told me "Look at my green nose ring. I have beautiful rendering."

 

[Evergreen States]

I ended up forgetting to get back to you. These are all with the Bronica 75mm ƒ/2.8 EII. Film was HP5+ rated at 200 ISO and lab developed and scanned (probably developed in TMAX). Hopefully these give you a feel for the bokeh. The middle picture is a bit of a torture test for both the foreground and background. All of these were shot somewhere between ƒ/2.8 and ƒ/4. As usual, the light has a much greater influence on how a picture looks than the particularities of the lens.

 

[ignatiu5]

While I’ve owned multiple versions of the Mamiya (M645, 1000s, and Pro) and one version of the Bronica (ETRSi), I never did a head-to-head with the lenses in the flavours that you’re thinking about. That said, I don’t recall significant differences in the images of one system versus the other for the 50/55, 75/80, or 150s. In other words, in terms of IQ, it may mostly just be a pick’em, and factors others have mentioned play a part in the decision-making process. Just one opinion, but I don’t think there’s a strong “better” for the lenses; some are going to like leaf shutters as in the Bronica, some will like simplicity and smaller size of the Mamiya standard lenses with a focal plane shutter in the body, etc.

I’m going to offer what I did when trying to decide between the two: buy both, either simultaneously or sequentially. Your preferences for either (or neither) will become evident, and they’ll be your preferences, your “better”. Sell the other, horrible, stank piece of garbage for what you paid.

 

[MattKing]

ignatiu5's suggestion is a good one, except it can expose you to the worst possible result: you like them both equally, but for slightly different reasons!

 

[Evergreen States]

While I’ve owned multiple versions of the Mamiya (M645, 1000s, and Pro) and one version of the Bronica (ETRSi), I never did a head-to-head with the lenses in the flavours that you’re thinking about. That said, I don’t recall significant differences in the images of one system versus the other for the 50/55, 75/80, or 150s. In other words, in terms of IQ, it may mostly just be a pick’em, and factors others have mentioned play a part in the decision-making process. Just one opinion, but I don’t think there’s a strong “better” for the lenses; some are going to like leaf shutters as in the Bronica, some will like simplicity and smaller size of the Mamiya standard lenses with a focal plane shutter in the body, etc.

I’m going to offer what I did when trying to decide between the two: buy both, either simultaneously or sequentially. Your preferences for either (or neither) will become evident, and they’ll be your preferences, your “better”. Sell the other, horrible, stank piece of garbage for what you paid.

The leaf shutter vs focal plane shutter lenses is a good point. The Bronica lenses have five aperture blades resulting in pentagonal specular highlights stopped down. I just noticed this in the third picture I posted. I've seen this in pictures taken with Hasselblad V lenses. The 80mm ƒ/2.8 Sekor for the Mamiya 645 has six aperture blades and will have differently-shaped specular highlights. I imagine the other non-leaf shuttered Mamiya lenses are similar.

 

[L_E_Miller]

ignatiu5's suggestion is a good one, except it can expose you to the worst possible result: you like them both equally, but for slightly different reasons!

I definitely ran into that in picking between the systems. I decided to go with Bronica for interchangeable backs at a low price point, even though I have a big soft spot for Mamiya (my first medium format camera was an RB67 and I loved the photos it made, and the 1000s is a nice, fast, camera)

 

[ignatiu5]

ignatiu5's suggestion is a good one, except it can expose you to the worst possible result: you like them both equally, but for slightly different reasons!

Guilty as charged. I held on to that Pro for far too long because of the power grip and self-timer...

 

[Evergreen States]

I decided to go with Bronica

Oh goodie. I'm sorry I didn't post my pictures sooner to help you. But I hope you're happy with your choice. Are you going to get the 50mm or 60mm for your wide?

 

[L_E_Miller]

Oh goodie. I'm sorry I didn't post my pictures sooner to help you. But I hope you're happy with your choice. Are you going to get the 50mm or 60mm for your wide?

I'm just going to get the 50mm MC and see if its sharp enough for my tastes. Then I can sell it on for the PE if not.

 

[lxdude]

I know - I have one for my Mamiya.
But when the camera has a waist level finder mounted, and you turn it on its side to view a subject in portrait orientation, you end up needing to have your eye beside (not above or behind) the camera, you must face in a direction 90 degrees away from the subject, and the viewing image is upside down.

I have a rectangular mirror in a plastic sleeve that I use just for this. It's just the right size. You still have to face 90 degrees to your subject, but holding the mirror to the screen at a 45-degree angle enables you to look down from above, and the image will be right side up. This of course requires use of a tripod.
The mirror was a girlfriend's makeup mirror, and when I saw her take it out of her purse to check her makeup, I immediately saw its potential. I begged and pleaded, and she gave it to me finally.

 

[lxdude]

The one thing the Mamiya 80 indisputably has over the Bronica 75 is there is the version with an f/1.9 maximum aperture, if that's of interest.