Mamiya 645 1000s film advance crank issues

[silvertab]

Hi there, I just received a Mamiya 645 1000s from ebay and upon shooting my first roll, I noticed something weird with the film crank. About half the time, it works just fine, and the film advances with 1 full turn of the crank, and then the crank stops, the shutter unlocks, and I can take a picture. The other half of the time, the film crank doesn't stop after 1 turn, and instead it takes 2 turns for it to eventually stop and for the shutter to unlock. On this second turn, I feel very little resistance in the crank.

I took a video of the issue which can be seen here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E6zqFwB8mDLpoNTh-LOUe3HM5TUe3HOI/view

You'll see that on the first shot, the film advances normally, and for the following 2 shots, it takes 2 turns of the crank instead of one for it to work.

This was sold as mint, so I'm a bit bummed about this, however if it doesn't affect shooting/frame spacing, I guess I can live with it (TBD, I still haven't developed that first roll).

Was wondering if others were experiencing this problem with their 645, and if I can expect more trouble than just having to the crank 720 degrees instead of 360 about half the time...

 

[Kino]

If it was advertised as being "mint", I think you have a strong case for a full refund.

It sounds like sticky lubricant that is not allowing the mechanism to fully reset in time to stop the advance beyond the proper frame spacing. If this is the case, a simple cleaning should fix the issue, but I would explore the cost with a repair person prior to negotiating with the seller. They may be willing to refund some money to cover the repairs; maybe not.

The safest alternative is to simply return it and find another truly "mint" example.

 

[silvertab]

Ugh, after developing that initial roll, it's really weird; the first frame shows up roughly in the middle of the roll, and then there's 3-4 frames that appear ok, and then the roll was over so the remaining 10+ frames are nowhere to be seen

 

[Kino]

I have a Rolleicord that does basically the same thing IF I do not slow down advancing the film between exposures. It has gotten better with exercise, but I always have to remind myself to wind the film slower than normal to get all exposures on the roll!

When/if it becomes intolerable, I will send it off for a CLA.

Take some backing paper as a dummy roll and experiment with winding speeds; you may find the same issue with your camera.

 

[silvertab]

... and to add to the confusion, now I'm wondering if perhaps I did something wrong when loading the film; I'm using the "empty" film that I just shot (i.e. just the roll and the backing paper) as a test roll (I know that the thickness is going to be slightly different than a real 120 film...) but still, ran through the entire roll 3 times now and every time, the crank works perfectly on every frame, and nothing seems off.

 

[Kino]

Well, it WAS your first roll, right? Who knows how long it sat before you used it?

Maybe the mechanism just needed some exercising to free-up the solidified lubricants?

I would run the dummy roll/backing paper a few more times to be sure and then try another roll of film.

2nd thought: was it extremely cold when you shot the roll? Might be a contributing factor in the mechanism malfunctioning...

 

[silvertab]

Well, it WAS your first roll, right? Who knows how long it sat before you used it?

Maybe the mechanism just needed some exercising to free-up the solidified lubricants?

I would run the dummy roll/backing paper a few more times to be sure and then try another roll of film.

2nd thought: was it extremely cold when you shot the roll? Might be a contributing factor in the mechanism malfunctioning...

yikes, yes, it was ~ -10C (~14F)

 

[Kino]

Well, that certainly could have contributed to the problem! Most cameras are not designed for shooting at sub-zero temperatures without special lubrication!

See pages 57 and 58:
https://www.cameramanuals.org/mamiya_pdf/mamiya_m_645_1000s.pdf

If you need to shoot in very cold conditions, I would purchase a pair of battery powered "hunting socks" and lay them in the bottom of your camera case. That should be enough to keep the camera relatively warm in between shots, as long as you return the camera to the bag very quickly.

Also, don't forget to pack a large Ziploc bag. Place your cold camera in the bag before returning inside from cold condition and don't open it until the camera has come to room temp to avoid condensation.

 

[silvertab]

Whelp... I just shot another roll with it and unfortunately, it looks like there's something very wrong with the film advance crank. Here's the result:


I'm not sure what the issue is exactly, but it looks like the film advance mechanism is misbehaving depending on the thickness of the film. Weirdly enough, if I use an empty roll of fomapan (with only the backing paper, which is super thin) everything seem to work just fine; the film advance crank stops at frame #1, and then stops properly on every frame, and shortly after the last frame (#15) the crank keeps going and after a couple of turn past the last frame, I reach the end of the backing paper, and there is no more resistance on the crank, just like I'd expect.

However, if I use an actual roll of film (the one in the picture above was Portra 400, but the same happens with HP5), when I load it and then turn the crank to go from "S" to frame #1, the film counter advances reaaaally slowly, and I end up making dozens of turns before I hit frame #1, and by then, I'm usually halfway through the roll. After shooting a couple of frames, I can definitely feel where I reach the end of the roll since there's no more resistance on the crank (seems to happen around frame 6 or 7), and the result, when I develop the film, can be seen in the image above (that's just one example, I went through 3 rolls now). Basically; a long stretch of blank film that reaches almost halfway through the roll (where I go from "s" to frame 1) and then a couple of decent frames, and then I reach the end of the roll...

I was willing to attribute the first roll to human error, but after 3, I'm pretty sure there's something wrong with the camera :\

 

[Kino]

Agreed.

Let me dig my example out and see if I can gain any insights into your problem.

Question: Do you have and have you used more than one film insert on these tests?

Can you show me a picture of the side of the insert with the gears showing?

 

[Kino]

Well, this is very interesting. I also appear to have the same problem with a spare insert I have that I rarely use.


As you can see here, the right spring tab is stuck and not allowing the plastic tip of the locking mechanism to extend and lock the magazine against the pressure plate. The other side does and gives me a false sense of being properly inserted. I was able to successfully transport a roll of backing paper only without mishap.


Here you see the pin trapped and unable to extend.


Here you see the frame counter wheel that the meshing gear on the insert MUST fully engage and run uninterrupted to transport the film properly. Adding the thickness of the film to the equation, undoubtedly will push the gear AWAY from the frame counting gear and cause intermittent skipping.


I was able to partially remedy the situation by loosening, but NOT removing, these two screws and playing with the tab that pushes the pin outward. Once I got the pin fully extended, I jiggled the loose end around several times to try to center the pin in the hole so it would not bind upon retraction. It took several attempts, but now the pin will extend, however the spring appear to be slightly weak or the pin not exactly centered, as when I insert it into the body of the camera, I have to carefully check to make sure the pin IS fully extended. I sometimes have to push the tab outward a bit to get it to fully seat and then everything appears to be fine.

It is not a total fix, but it might temporarily solve your problem, IF that is what is going on with your camera.

I need to do some more poking around to come to a more definite conclusion on MY situation, but suggest you carefully examine your insert for sticking or stuck retention pins.

PS: NEVER put lubrication on any part of your film insert! It will migrate to the film and film with oil on it will be a disaster!

 

[Kino]

One other thing you can check on the insert is the follow roller. I am pointing to it with the screwdriver tip.

It must have good spring tension to push it back against the backing paper to turn the gear that moves the frame counter. It could have poor spring tension or the rubber on the surface of the roller might be hard/slick and need to be rejuvenated .

Either or both of these problems could also contribute to the problem.

 

[silvertab]

Thanks a lot for all the info! I looked at the insert closely; all the pins and spring look fine and tight, however, what I suspect might be the problem is the little rubber wheel... with the fomapan backing paper, there is no problem because I think that the rubber wheel turns properly as the film advances. With Portra, the backing paper is very slick and waxy, and I think the rubber wheel does _not_ turn properly as it should while the film advances, I think it tens to "slide" on the waxy backing paper and doesn't always advance the counter as it should; which might cause the problem I'm seeing: by the time the counter finally reaches "1" I'm almost halfway through the roll...

I'm not sure if the problem is that the rubber is too try, or the wheel itself is too "hard" to turn, nor am I sure how to try to fix the issue...

 

[Kino]

Welcome!

You might try to find a "rubber restorer" solution that is used for capstan roller rejuvenation and see if it will restore the grip of the rubber.

https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals...cphy=1023191&hvtargid=pla-1437592687421&psc=1

Other than that, a small "0" ring that fits tightly in the wheel groove might also solve your problem, although I am unsure how much clearance of a thick ring might cause issues.

Good luck.

 

[Kino]

One final observation:

In inspecting my 3 film inserts, one of which is a 220 insert, I found that it had been stored with an empty spool resting against the rubberized frame counter roller. This has left a indentation in the rubber coating on the roller from the pressure of extended storage.

I treated all the rollers with rubber renew and they seemed OK, but the dent in the 220 roller might cause spacing issues and I'll have to keep an eye on it in the future.

I would advise anyone reading this with a Mamiya 645 to examine your empty inserts for empty spools on the take-up side and move them to the feed side for storage to avoid deforming the rubber on the take up spool.

 

[PioneerRegent]

One final observation:

In inspecting my 3 film inserts, one of which is a 220 insert, I found that it had been stored with an empty spool resting against the rubberized frame counter roller. This has left a indentation in the rubber coating on the roller from the pressure of extended storage.

I treated all the rollers with rubber renew and they seemed OK, but the dent in the 220 roller might cause spacing issues and I'll have to keep an eye on it in the future.

I would advise anyone reading this with a Mamiya 645 to examine your empty inserts for empty spools on the take-up side and move them to the feed side for storage to avoid deforming the rubber on the take up spool.

I registered an account on here just to say this. Thank you. I was terrified that my 645 1000s was broken. But reading this thread helped me figure out the issue.

I was especially scared because I'd just dropped £50 on a power drive grip for it. Was fiddling with the camera out of excitement and noticed it was doing what OP's was doing, winding more than once. I thought "damn, I can't afford to replace this" but thanks to you helping op in such an in depth manner, I was able to figure out the frame counter was just slipping on the empty take up spool.

Not all heroes wear capes! You're incredible