Making separation negatives using RA-4 material?

[T-grain]

thanks for your appreciation, Chris!
but I think if this RA4 thing would work (and being not too expensive), it is more like a straight route from slide directly to the contact negative....
I still need to check the availability and price at the local Kodak dealer here in Slovenia. Ordinary RA4 paper isn't expensive, but have no idea how much would be the transparent version.
as for its contrast, maybe it could be tamed at least to a degree, but this doesn't worry me, since the carbon tissue material could be tuned accordingly (dichromate and pigment concentration)-remember, it's a very flexible process!
as for the dependency from commercial products-yes, but nonetheless we are (still) also dependent on color films.....

 

[T-grain]

just checked the Endura datasheet-I would say it has a gamma of around 2....quite contrasty I would say.....but that would be at 35 deg Celsius
I just wonder how it would behave in a diluted developer and at 20 degrees in a tray

 

[Photo Engineer]

The reported gamma is for the dye image alone. Dye plus silver would be higher and lower in saturation. You might want to form a neutral dye image. IDK.

PE

 

[holmburgers]

but nonetheless we are (still) also dependent on color films.....

That's very true. But a three-color camera project is inevitable one of these days (years, decades)....

 

[T-grain]

The reported gamma is for the dye image alone. Dye plus silver would be higher and lower in saturation. You might want to form a neutral dye image. IDK.

PE

one more question, Ron-how do behave the three color curves (the slope) when you alter the temperature/dilution of the selected developer? do they become unpredictable? I know you have vast experience with RA4 at room temp

 

[T-grain]

quick update-just checked the Kodak website again-the Ultra Endura paper also has no backprint, so this could also be an option-to use paper negatives, probably (much?) cheaper

 

[wildbillbugman]

Holmburgers,
Funny you should give that particular rout as a humorous analegy. In fact I have done just that. There was the fact that my layover in Anchorage lasted 3 weeks.
T-grain- Sorry for hijacking your thread. It just started me thinking. That gets me in trouble. Someone on another Forum pointed out to me that Duraclear has a UV blocking layer that increases exposure times,for some Alt processes, up tp 6 stops. Maybe it was a dumb idea.
Bill

 

[Bob Carnie]

I have heard about this blocking layer on Dura Clear and Fuji Clear,, PE what do you make of this ? would this material be useless under an U V nuark system?

Holmburgers,
Funny you should give that particular rout as a humorous analegy. In fact I have done just that. There was the fact that my layover in Anchorage lasted 3 weeks.
T-grain- Sorry for hijacking your thread. It just started me thinking. That gets me in trouble. Someone on another Forum pointed out to me that Duraclear has a UV blocking layer that increases exposure times,for some Alt processes, up tp 6 stops. Maybe it was a dumb idea.
Bill

 

[T-grain]

thanks, Bill, that made me thinking about if it does make sense at all.....perhaps you know with which process other people used the Duraclear?
so, probably only paper (with no backprint) makes sense then....and it's even cheaper for sure....

 

[holmburgers]

Printing with UV through a paper that thick would surely make for awfully long exposures.

How 'bout this...

Instead of using UV exposure, why not utilize the carbro reaction? Now, this is probably opening up a bag of worms, but imagine a panchromatic material that you could expose directly onto from your color film, process and then squeegee with pigment tissues. Another product that might work for this is Ilfospeed RC Digital; a b&w panchromatic paper meant for laser exposure.

But in either case, you'd have to make sure that a super-coating didn't hinder the carbro reaction, and now you'd be working from a negative (that is unless the carbro reaction is capable of making a planographic matrix...).

 

[Photo Engineer]

Endura paper holds up well to variations in development. There is a slight blue - magenta hue shift but otherwise, the paper looks quite stable down to 68 F (20C).

PE

 

[CMB]

...imagine a panchromatic material that you could expose directly onto from your color film, process and then squeegee with pigment tissues. ..But in either case, you'd have to make sure that a super-coating didn't hinder the carbro reaction.

Here's just the thing for you: A roll of Ilford Panchromatic Bromide on a "waterproof" base - oops, it expired in 1964

 

[holmburgers]

Hmm, well heck, how badly fogged can it really be??

Do you know if folks ever did this; panchro b&w paper straight from original color neg, then off to carbro? Or is that exactly what this Ilford paper was for?

 

[CMB]

Yes, that is exactly what this paper was designed to do. Tri color carbro prints directly from color negs. Ah, those were the (brief) days...

 

[wildbillbugman]

T-grain,
The only process I know of that that uses Duraclear is that for which it is intended. But that ain't no fun!
Bill

 

[T-grain]

that RC digital paper is probably the best option then....
if it doesn't have an UV blocking layer, even better
maybe it could be made more transparent using glycerol (IDK if it works well with RC base)

 

[Bob Carnie]

So are you all saying if I could make enlarged silver bromide negatives on fibre rc or fibre paper some here would be interested?

 

[Bob Carnie]

Ok , maybe those brief days are back.

Yes, that is exactly what this paper was designed to do. Tri color carbro prints directly from color negs. Ah, those were the (brief) days...

 

[holmburgers]

Those must've been the days... how awesome.

Bob, are you talking about for carbro? Not that I've ever even attempted the carbro process, but it has been said that most modern papers don't work well because of a gelatin super-coating. IDK the extent of this truth, but something to think about.

And who knows how good the Ilfospeed digital would take silver-negatives since it's designed for a totally different exposure, though I realize you could probably use it as it's intended with all your fancy photo making apparatuses.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Chris - this thread is really interesting to me but due to a recent thread I started.. Lith paper from B & H .. I am hesitant to really discuss my viewpoint, basically as most of what I would add here has a digital element to it.
Sean has mentioned a possible bridge between APUG and DPUG for threads like this that basically could have a huge digital element.

I never made a carbo ,nor have I considered it, I can make resin or fiber negatives on paper , just don't know what to do then,, I do know what to do with my enlarged negatives though.

Those must've been the days... how awesome.

Bob, are you talking about for carbro? Not that I've ever even attempted the carbro process, but it has been said that most modern papers don't work well because of a gelatin super-coating. IDK the extent of this truth, but something to think about.

And who knows how good the Ilfospeed digital would take silver-negatives since it's designed for a totally different exposure, though I realize you could probably use it as it's intended with all your fancy photo making apparatuses.

 

[T-grain]

Bob, there are a lot of possibilities what to do with those large negatives-Pt/Pd, gum, carbon/carbro, even cyanotypes would be a nice idea....

I checked today the price for the Maco Genius ortho film-it is just a bit more expensive than the ordinary (and expensive) Ilford RC paper- a bit more than 20 EUR for a square meter
I have no idea how much is the cost for imagesetting film though

 

[Photo Engineer]

Bob, I would like to talk to you sometime on variations in work flow.

PE

 

[Bob Carnie]

We are making a 20x24 cyanotype today for a client from a point and shoot digital camera , converted to black and white silver film.
Her payment is $500 towards more alternative materials that I will spread between Bostick and Sullivan, Arches, Pigments and chemical supplies. When I teach a workshop here in Toronto
all the moneys go towards materials for R&D. The Rollie film we are purchasing is minimum order 4 rolls at around $1350 Euros, kind of steep and I am begging Harmon to sell me one roll of Ilford Ortho 25 but
to this date , I get an answer of minimum order of 4k which in this economy can be used to put food on our staffs table, we will wait. I just finished up all my Rollie 25 film for testing so I have lots to do over the next few months.

I am having the time of my life and I have a couple of young assistants that help me with all of this and we are learning together.

Ron
I would love to talk to you about the different workflows. I think a trip to Rochester with my crew would be fun if you are up to it.
Steve Sherman has a great weekend in March in Mass. which we will attend with our recent efforts.. We will drive right through Rochester so maybe a visit on our way in or out is possible?

Bob, there are a lot of possibilities what to do with those large negatives-Pt/Pd, gum, carbon/carbro, even cyanotypes would be a nice idea....

I checked today the price for the Maco Genius ortho film-it is just a bit more expensive than the ordinary (and expensive) Ilford RC paper- a bit more than 20 EUR for a square meter
I have no idea how much is the cost for imagesetting film though

 

[Bob Carnie]

Never heard of the Maco Genius ortho film, can it be purchase in 20 or 30 inch rolls?

Bob, there are a lot of possibilities what to do with those large negatives-Pt/Pd, gum, carbon/carbro, even cyanotypes would be a nice idea....

I checked today the price for the Maco Genius ortho film-it is just a bit more expensive than the ordinary (and expensive) Ilford RC paper- a bit more than 20 EUR for a square meter
I have no idea how much is the cost for imagesetting film though

 

[Photo Engineer]

Bob;

A visit or a phone call, anything is possible.

PE