Magnesium view camera.

[eli griggs]

I'm wondering what is the lightest metal material a view camera can be made from?

Until sponge metal becomes available at affordable prices, what current or past metals would work, IN YOUR OPINION?

 

[Dan Fromm]

Unobtanium.

Magnesium? Calumet C-1 8x10.

 

[MattKing]

Carbon fibre has been tried.
@Ole , a formerly active moderator on Apug, employed a very interesting LF camera that had that construction. Can anyone recall what its name was?It wasn't a Chamonix.

 

[MattKing]

A further search reveals that the name of the carbon fibre camera was Carbon Infinity, and very few (~100?) were ever made.

 

[DREW WILEY]

There are serious tricks to die-casting magnesium. Melt-cast is worthless. I was involved in some of the pioneering of it - not at the engineering end, but at the guinea pig testing end. It's a soft metal, and nearly every usable version of it is actually an aluminum-magnesium alloy specially plated. It's no good for gearing or other hardware subject to friction. Body components could be made with it, but why ?? - now that there are ply composite materials both stronger and lighter, and a lot easier to CNC machine.

 

[Xylo]

And besides, composites don't burn like magnesium does.
Titanium could be used since it would reduce how beefy the frame has to be. But comes a point where the gains are not really worth the effort.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Titanium is expensive to buy and machine. My Ebony camera has titanium hardware. What is more often used is hard-anodized alloys of aluminum per se, like Keith Canham CNC fabricates for his own line of view cameras. And aircraft aluminum is even lighter than titanium, though you don't want wear to get below the surface anodizing itself.

And yes, there was a difficult learning curve finding out how to reduce the flammability of magnesium. Takes me back about 40 yrs. But for the most part, pressed magnesium has just become the new junk import version of what zinc alloy "pot metal" was once. The technology is in abundant use in China for all kinds of substandard tool housings etc. Doing it the right way is always more expensive, however. It would be pretty far fetched for camera use, at least in terms of durability and precision, though I've had good luck with basic magnesium quick-release plates and adapters for smaller view cameras.

 

[GregY]

How light does it have to be? What size camera are we talking about? 4x5?..... lots of Nagaokas and Anba Ikedas, You want light & cheap? Intrepid. You want unobtanium?..... Carbon Infinity. 8x10? How about the Chamonix Alpinist at 2460grams. ULF? Richard Ritter cameras. In the end, how much does camera weight contribute to the overall kit weight? Just asking......

 

[Kodachromeguy]

There are serious tricks to die-casting magnesium. Melt-cast is worthless. I was involved in some of the pioneering of it - not at the engineering end, but at the guinea pig testing end. It's a soft metal, and nearly every usable version of it is actually an aluminum-magnesium alloy specially plated. It's no good for gearing or other hardware subject to friction. Body components could be made with it, but why ?? - now that there are ply composite materials both stronger and lighter, and a lot easier to CNC machine.

How well does magnesium work in Gitzo pan tilt tripod heads? Users report that they are surprisingly light. I assume Gitzo makes them the right way.

 

[Paul Howell]

I have a early 50s Brand later called New View view, it was made out of aircraft quality aluminum from WWII aircraft. It is cast. I bought it at a swap meet in the 80s, over the years there have been some cracks that I've filled with a epoxy which have held up. It's an odd beast, I've seen ads on the internet that shows a New View with a rangefinder and marketed as a press camera. I don't have any idea how that would work. It is duel rail type, has good movements, rotating back. It is light, the back standard has a handle that was cast, makes it easy to carry for a short distance, too bulky to carry on a hike. Not a monorail, not a field camera, not a press camera just odd. I use when I think I will need more movements than my Crown or Speed offers.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I've only looked at the newer mag Gitzo pan/tilt heads. Seem well made. Since my own older aluminum one is basically a lifetime item, I have no motive to replace it. Besides, I don't use tripod heads at all for long backpack trips. I did replace my old aluminum tripod for Gitzo's earliest carbon fiber version, which is more durably made than their current equivalent. Going too light can be a detriment unless you hang a bag of rocks below the tripod head for added stability.

 

[eli griggs]

Another thread that discussed metal field cameras sparked my interest so I posed this question, because of curiosity and a desire to hear from other experienced L.F. users.

My stripped down Ani. Speed Graphic is the lightest 4"X5" I've ever used, but the two metal cameras in that other thread were said to be too heavy for hiking, day shoots, etc.

I had considered them both to be viable options previously, so I wanted to see what alternatives in metal field cameras might be.

Magnesium, was just the best first suggestion I could think of as a possibility, as I wrote out my post and I'm still interested in the probables of what can be done or looked for.

I wonder if titanium could be effectively used if the standards were hollow, or possibly lightened by dimples like a golf ball or air to water transitioning and reverse military small arms ammo?

4"X5" is the format I'm best set up to process, but with eight 5"x7" holders for use with a pinhole camera, mainly paper negatives, that size camera is also of interest.

Cheers

 

[eli griggs]

I've only looked at the newer mag Gitzo pan/tilt heads. Seem well made. Since my own older aluminum one is basically a lifetime item, I have no motive to replace it. Besides, I don't use tripod heads at all for long backpack trips. I did replace my old aluminum tripod for Gitzo's earliest carbon fiber version, which is more durably made than their current equivalent. Going too light can be a detriment unless you hang a bag of rocks below the tripod head for added stability.

My field tripod is an aluminium Gitzo Reporter with aluminum as a first choice for car based 'field' photography and, when I can afford to add to my kit, a Giant Gitzo, which will also be in aluminum, because of its weight advantage, bag or rocks or no.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I always felt sketchy in the mountains carrying an aluminum tripod. I've been in some crazy lightning storms. The other problem with the old alum. Gitzo was that skin would stick to it in cold weather. I prefer Ries wooden tripods, but do have a set of carbon fiber tripods for parallel applications when less weight is a priority.

My preferred heavier full-featured 4x5 is a Sinar Norma. But my lightweight one is a little Ebony folder which will accommodate up to 360mm standard (non-tele) lenses. The titanium hardware is a luxury, but it would be awfully expensive to machine a whole camera out of that - and there again, very prone to condensation in the cold, or static electricity issues in dry winter desert conditions.

These newer composite plys like Chamonix uses make far more sense if you're looking for stability combined with light weight. The 8X10 Phillips is the patriarch of that whole line of thinking, and mine has held up superbly. It's made with a custom fiberglass and epoxy-impregnated cherrywood ply. Chamonix uses a custom carbon fiber and wood laminate.

 

[eli griggs]

I always felt sketchy in the mountains carrying an aluminum tripod. I've been in some crazy lightning storms. The other problem with the old alum. Gitzo was that skin would stick to it in cold weather. I prefer Ries wooden tripods, but do have a set of carbon fiber tripods for parallel applications when less weight is a priority.

I agree, and will not use my Gitzo aluminum tripod or monopod, when lightening is likely.

I suppose a wooden tripod would be best in storms, but, metal spikes or feet takes away from that advantage, IMO.

 

[DREW WILEY]

No, the spikes would tend to ground the electrical charge. It might make all the difference between you being fried medium rare versus turned to charcoal. If I had to hunker down, I'd quickly look around for a low place where there weren't any burn marks on the trees, and then leave the metal tripod about 20 yards away. I'm obviously still alive; but there have sure been some close calls up on high passes or peaks. Those storms can move in mighty fast.

The stupidest one I ever heard about is when a Boy Scout troop leader had them erect a tall mess hall tent central support pole right below a set of high voltage power lines. A fatal mistake.

 

[nosmok]

There was a magnesium-alloy 8x10 camera from Kodak in the late 1930s-- called the Eastman Commercial, because Kodak couldn't help themselves reusing names then, either. It was unpainted magnesium, rigid as hell, no front swings, weighs less than 6 pounds. They stopped making it by 1942, because of WWII Mg supply issues.

 

[Axelwik]

Wood cameras, if properly constructed, are usually lighter than metal cameras.

Titanium is heavier than aluminum. Titanium is lighter than steel and used where bending and heat related stress is high - good for the SR-71 and jet engine components, but not needed for cameras.

Good quality aluminum alloy is a bit heavier than magnesium, but stronger. Magnesium is a relatively soft metal - guess you could start a fire with it, if you can get it lit.

 

[DREW WILEY]

magnesium gets fatigued stressed relatively easily too. Not good for parts or components which require torque or flex.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

Titanium is heavier than aluminum. Titanium is lighter than steel and used where bending and heat related stress is high - good for the SR-71 and jet engine components, but not needed for cameras.

One of the 1960s and 1970s exports from the Soviet Union was titanium pitons for climbers. The Soviets had developed some degree of titanium manufacturing for the hulls of at least one class of submarine. They must have been trying to raise foreign currency, although piton sales would not have amounted to many $$s.

 

[Axelwik]

One of the 1960s and 1970s exports from the Soviet Union was titanium pitons for climbers. The Soviets had developed some degree of titanium manufacturing for the hulls of at least one class of submarine. They must have been trying to raise foreign currency, although piton sales would not have amounted to many $$s.

Yes, pitons might be a good use for titanium since steel is the only real alternative. I've used titanium ice screws in the past.

Titanium is also more resistant to corrosion than steel, so it might make sense for a submarine hull, but would be outlandishly expensive for anything else of the same size - the cost of a titanium hull in a nuclear submarine would be a fraction of the total cost.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

The Carbon Infinity had some interesting features with all the movements of a monorail camera that folded up into a rugged clamshell like a field camera, but it still weighed as much as a Linhof Technika.

If I were in the market for a versatile lightweight field camera, I’d be thinking Chamonix.

 

[reddesert]

When talking about material choice, one has to consider density, strength, and stiffness (in addition to ease of manufacturing, like weldability, machinability, etc). So for example, the aluminum alloys typically used are about 40% of the density of steel alloys, also around the same ratio of tensile strength. Titanium is somewhere in between. The bending stiffness of a part goes up as a strong power of its diameter (as the 4th power of diameter for a solid rod).

So if a part is dimensionally constrained, or needs fine machining like threads, then it's best made out of steel. But if you can make the part larger in cross-section, you can gain a lot of stiffness, enabling the part to be made out of aluminum and gaining greater stiffness and lower weight compared to steel at the same strength. You can see this in the design of bicycle frames, for example, where larger-diameter frame tubes enable lighter bike frames made out of aluminum or titanium, but the wheel axles, bottom bracket spindles, bolts, spokes, etc are generally still made of steel unless the diameter can be greatly enlarged (eg oversized axles/spindles).

For cameras, there are only certain places in a frame where ultimate tensile strength is really tested, but clearly rigidity matters a lot. This is another reason why wood is still a viable camera body material - wood is pretty stiff for its weight. It has low strength in compression, which is why a wood ladder comes out a lot heavier than an aluminum ladder, but you don't need to stand on a camera. Carbon fiber has some of the same strengths and weaknesses as wood (better suited to cameras or bike frames than to submersibles).

 

[DREW WILEY]

Hi Axelwick. Since you're from the SW you'd understand this anecdote. My nephew went climbing in Slovenia, and was there able to obtain Russian titanium ice screws. But his first use for them was actually in the Fisher Towers - the tallest sandstone towers in the world near Cisco, Utah, which are relatively soft, yet have even softer sections of coal.

Pitons went out of favor long ago. Now they use chocks and hooks and, for all I know, beer can pop tops. When I was a kid I could afford none of the above, but sometimes would drive a rusty narrow-gage RR spike into a crack.

 

[Axelwik]

Hi Axelwick. Since you're from the SW you'd understand this anecdote. My nephew went climbing in Slovenia, and was there able to obtain Russian titanium ice screws. But his first use for them was actually in the Fisher Towers - the tallest sandstone towers in the world near Cisco, Utah, which are relatively soft, yet have even softer sections of coal.

Pitons went out of favor long ago. Now they use chocks and hooks and, for all I know, beer can pop tops. When I was a kid I could afford none of the above, but sometimes would drive a rusty narrow-gage RR spike into a crack.

Yeah I'll bet an ice screw would work in coal or soft shale! And knowing the Russians and their sense of timing, they probably started making titanium pitons about the same time everyone started using chocks, nuts, cams, etc.

Speaking of Slovenia, I'm heading there in about a month for a motorcycle tour. Small world.