M42(-compatible) camera with spot metering?

[Lucius]

Don't thank me. I had nothing to do with it, but it was obviously a lot of work -- and like most lists probably not 100% complete.

What i would like (and I'm sure others would like, as well), would be a similar list of M42 cameras and lenses. Those two lists would be even longer!

For m42 lenses, there's the M42 Lens Database (https://m42lens.com/): it's incomplete, but more extensive and systematic than anything else I've seen online; I guess by registering one should be able to add lenses to the database. Never seen anything like it for m42 bodies.

 

[Lucius]

Probably not. The metering is more sophisticated. But that doesn’t necessarily equal better results.

Thanks!

 

[Lucius]

Matrix metering uses a number of cells, each cell measures the light in a given cell then a chip with an algorithm figures out what you are shooting and adjusts the exposure to match a given pattern, such as back lite or side lighting. My understanding is in the days of film cameras Matrix was optimized for slides. All modern DSLR and Mirroless cameras use Matrix metering. Below is a link the Minolta 5 manual. But I would also look at a Nikon N80, N75, Canon EOS rebel, other than top of the line Pentax I would avoid Pentax as Pentax used plastic gears that strip out.

Minolta Maxxum 5 instruction manual, PDF user manual

Minolta Maxxum 5 instruction manual

www.butkus.org

Thanks, that sounds like a useful feature, though perhaps not the best way to learn how slide film behaves.

 

[BrianShaw]

Thanks, that sounds like a useful feature, though perhaps not the best way to learn how slide film behaves.

True, but advanced metering like matrix and other weighted are facilitate the performance of photographic art with minimal "burden" of the craft of photographic "performance".

 

[xkaes]

For m42 lenses, there's the M42 Lens Database (https://m42lens.com/): it's incomplete, but more extensive and systematic than anything else I've seen online; I

Thanks for that link. I was unaware of it. It certainly is an admirable effort.
But, as you say, it is incomplete. For example, it lists 29 Yashica lenses with an M42 mount, while there are over twice as many listed on the YASHICA BOARD.
Needless to say, it will help out a lot of people -- like me!
I'm going to add a link to my Minolta websites.
Now all we have to do is talk someone into creating a M42 CAMERA list -- with details.
Any nominees?
I can think one one!

 

[George Mann]

I prefer the Mamiya's spot meter. But finding one that works is difficult these days.

The jumpy meter on the OP's is likely do to dirty contacts.

 

[Helge]

If you don’t know about matrix metering, you might be a beginner. So maybe you are not really ready for spot metering?
It’s not just “point at what you want and meter.
You need to point at two, three or more targets and do an intelligent assessment of what you want as middle.
For example: Point at the middle of a Caucasian face and you will get underexposure of the whole scene. A totally black African face will give you overexposure.
Matrix metering (especially first gen) might misunderstand your intention with the scene and expose it wrong. Not that a big deal with negative film, but can be with reversal.

 

[George Mann]

It’s not just “point at what you want and meter.

Once one learns where to meter most scenes, it can be this simple.

You need to point at two, three or more targets and do an intelligent assessment of what you want as middle.

Some scenes require this careful approach. Being able to identify them is the key.

 

[Helge]

Once one learns where to meter most scenes, it can be this simple.



Some scenes require this careful approach. Being able to identify them is the key.

If your subject does not have anything approaching middle gray and/or your spot meter has too large a spot, it becomes a matter of “guess what is middle gray in the scene” if you want to go by a single reading.
And then a good center weighted meter (with exposure lock) is just as good or I’d say better.

 

[Lucius]

If you don’t know about matrix metering, you might be a beginner. So maybe you are not really ready for spot metering?
It’s not just “point at what you want and meter.
You need to point at two, three or more targets and do an intelligent assessment of what you want as middle.
For example: Point at the middle of a Caucasian face and you will get underexposure of the whole scene. A totally black African face will give you overexposure.
Matrix metering (especially first gen) might misunderstand your intention with the scene and expose it wrong. Not that a big deal with negative film, but can be with reversal.

I am a beginner, but I think I understand the theory, at least in theory. I get that the averaging meter might produce better results than the spot meter improperly used, but I don't think the former is a good way to learn. With the spot meter, I will know what I'm metering for, and if I err, next time (or the time after the next) I will know how to adjust (and of course it doesn't have to be a single metering). And if you use exposure lock (i.e. don't automatically trust the averaging meter, but make adjustment for where you believe should be middle grey), it's still basically the same technique as spot metering, but with a less precise instrument.

 

[Lucius]

I prefer the Mamiya's spot meter. But finding one that works is difficult these days.

The jumpy meter on the OP's is likely do to dirty contacts.

Do you think it's just the contacts in the battery compartment, or somewhere inside the camera? I seem to remember that the meter was rather jumpy when I tried to meter inside the house, but seemed more stable when I pointed out through the window -- perhaps it gets a better current with more light? Despite the DSX's heft, I rather liked its shutter and overall feel, so it'd be nice if I could make the meter work.

 

[George Mann]

Do you think it's just the contacts in the battery compartment, or somewhere inside the camera? I seem to remember that the meter was rather jumpy when I tried to meter inside the house, but seemed more stable when I pointed out through the window -- perhaps it gets a better current with more light? Despite the DSX's heft, I rather liked its shutter and overall feel, so it'd be nice if I could make the meter work.

If it meters correctly in good light, then your good to go.

CDS cells have poor low light sensitivity. The jumpiness could be related.

 

[Lucius]

If it meters correctly in good light, then your good to go.

CDS cells have poor low light sensitivity. The jumpiness could be related.

Thanks, yes, I definitely need to take it out for a walk on a bright day.

 

[George Mann]

I just bought a Mamiya 1000dtl + 50mm f2 from the original owner.

This camera was made the year I was born.

 

[Helge]

I am a beginner, but I think I understand the theory, at least in theory. I get that the averaging meter might produce better results than the spot meter improperly used, but I don't think the former is a good way to learn. With the spot meter, I will know what I'm metering for, and if I err, next time (or the time after the next) I will know how to adjust (and of course it doesn't have to be a single metering). And if you use exposure lock (i.e. don't automatically trust the averaging meter, but make adjustment for where you believe should be middle grey), it's still basically the same technique as spot metering, but with a less precise instrument.

You are still using your eye to judge where to meter.
That’s inherently not precise already.

Provia has about 10 to 11 stops on a good day. In a nature scene or indoor scene including sunlight through a window you might run out of stops before you want to, at either end, and in a way you weren’t expecting.
Sometimes the averaging meter is wiser in its simplicity than you think.

But of course you can do spot metering with a regular meter. Just walk up to the spot you want to meter, or point it to something that is similarly lit.
If that is possible it's often a much better method than using a spot meter.

But most of the time just point the meter at the scene, shoot and it’s perfect.
If there is a very bright sky you don’t care about, point the lens down a bit and meter/lock exposure. If the sky is the main subject, which it often is in landscapes point the meter up a bit.

Use polarizers and grad filters to go even further in controlling highlights.

 

[Autonerd]

For shooting slide film, an accurate and reliable spot (or rather partial) meter seems to be a top priority.

I'm late to reply here, but (as someone who started shooting film Back In The Day, including lots of slide film) I would disagree -- I actually think a spot meter is a *bad* idea for slide film. What are you going to "spot" on? You need to find the element in your scene that approximates middle gray, and if you don't get that right, your exposure will be off -- and with slide film that means the lightness of the photo won't be right. (Unless you're scanning it, in which case the scanner takes its own exposure so it doesn't matter if your exposure isn't perfect -- and if you're doing that, you may as well save money and shoot color negative film.)

I think what you want is a center-weighted averaging meter, which evaluates the whole scene and grants a little more importance to what's in the middle. It's a much better method of metering, and the good news is that most cameras (including most M42s) have it. I shot slides for quite a while with two center-weight cameras (Pentax KX and MG) and did just fine, though I did sometimes bracket to cover my bases (especially at night).

You mentioned learning about metering, and what you need to learn is what situations will throw the meter off -- things like a very dark subject (say, a dark-blue car) or a very light one (a snowy scene). You have to look at what exposure your meter is recommending and think "Is this right?" There are a few easy checks to learn (which, unfortunately, I did not learn until I went back to film in 2019). One is the Sunny 16 rule -- it's a great guideline. (One of my favorite rail photographers, Don Ball Jr., never used a meter; he just looked at the lighting conditions -- what we now call Sunny 16.) Another is to meter off grass that is in the same light as your scene. Grass is pretty close to middle gray. If you have a fair complexion, you can meter off your arm. It's not perfect middle gray (and differs based on your skin tone), but it can tell you if the meter's way off.

Matrix metering is a great idea. Matrix divides the scene up into bits, meters each one, and decides what bits it should pay most attention to. Problem is, you will generally find it in cameras made in the late 1980s-90s. They are very automated and probably won't give you what you want.

Anyway -- spot metering is a red herring. Center-weighted is much, much better for what you want to do.

And -- if I may ask -- why shoot slides? Back in the day, we loved slide film for the way the colors exploded off the screen, and shooting it was a bit of a he-man macho thing because you had to nail the exposure. Now that we scan most film, I think scans of negs and slides look equally good on screen. From my own photos, here and here are scans of slides and here and here are scans of color neg; I think they both pop equally on screen. (You can see the film types at the links; note the night shot is cheap drugstore film.)

If you are trying to learn to get your exposure right, I would suggest a cheaper alternative: SHoot B&W and learn to read the negative density, which isn't difficult to do. That's the problem with color neg: That strong orange cast makes it hard to read the negative.

Honestly I'd still shoot color slide if it wasn't so flippin' expensive. That's why most of my color is digital and I do most of my film in B&W.

Second, there are the Mamiyas (DTL, DSX): I got a DSX almost for free, but haven't tried it so far (its meter behaves weirdly)

Nifty camera -- I inherited my uncle's 1000 DTL -- but if the meter doesn't work, they are apparently difficult to repair, or so was told to me by a Mamiya repair guy.

4) preferably metal and mechanical; (5) cheap. I'll be hugely grateful for any recommendations!

If you were to lose your M42 and spot meter requirements, I'd also consider the Pentax KM, which is basically a Spotmatic F with a K-mount. It was "decontented" to become the K1000.

HTH!
Aaron

 

[Helge]

I'm late to reply here, but (as someone who started shooting film Back In The Day, including lots of slide film) I would disagree -- I actually think a spot meter is a *bad* idea for slide film. What are you going to "spot" on? You need to find the element in your scene that approximates middle gray, and if you don't get that right, your exposure will be off -- and with slide film that means the lightness of the photo won't be right. (Unless you're scanning it, in which case the scanner takes its own exposure so it doesn't matter if your exposure isn't perfect -- and if you're doing that, you may as well save money and shoot color negative film.)

I think what you want is a center-weighted averaging meter, which evaluates the whole scene and grants a little more importance to what's in the middle. It's a much better method of metering, and the good news is that most cameras (including most M42s) have it. I shot slides for quite a while with two center-weight cameras (Pentax KX and MG) and did just fine, though I did sometimes bracket to cover my bases (especially at night).

You mentioned learning about metering, and what you need to learn is what situations will throw the meter off -- things like a very dark subject (say, a dark-blue car) or a very light one (a snowy scene). You have to look at what exposure your meter is recommending and think "Is this right?" There are a few easy checks to learn (which, unfortunately, I did not learn until I went back to film in 2019). One is the Sunny 16 rule -- it's a great guideline. (One of my favorite rail photographers, Don Ball Jr., never used a meter; he just looked at the lighting conditions -- what we now call Sunny 16.) Another is to meter off grass that is in the same light as your scene. Grass is pretty close to middle gray. If you have a fair complexion, you can meter off your arm. It's not perfect middle gray (and differs based on your skin tone), but it can tell you if the meter's way off.

Matrix metering is a great idea. Matrix divides the scene up into bits, meters each one, and decides what bits it should pay most attention to. Problem is, you will generally find it in cameras made in the late 1980s-90s. They are very automated and probably won't give you what you want.

Anyway -- spot metering is a red herring. Center-weighted is much, much better for what you want to do.

And -- if I may ask -- why shoot slides? Back in the day, we loved slide film for the way the colors exploded off the screen, and shooting it was a bit of a he-man macho thing because you had to nail the exposure. Now that we scan most film, I think scans of negs and slides look equally good on screen. From my own photos, here and here are scans of slides and here and here are scans of color neg; I think they both pop equally on screen. (You can see the film types at the links; note the night shot is cheap drugstore film.)

If you are trying to learn to get your exposure right, I would suggest a cheaper alternative: SHoot B&W and learn to read the negative density, which isn't difficult to do. That's the problem with color neg: That strong orange cast makes it hard to read the negative.

Honestly I'd still shoot color slide if it wasn't so flippin' expensive. That's why most of my color is digital and I do most of my film in B&W.


Nifty camera -- I inherited my uncle's 1000 DTL -- but if the meter doesn't work, they are apparently difficult to repair, or so was told to me by a Mamiya repair guy.



If you were to lose your M42 and spot meter requirements, I'd also consider the Pentax KM, which is basically a Spotmatic F with a K-mount. It was "decontented" to become the K1000.

HTH!
Aaron

You lost me at “why shoot slide?”.
The rest is great.

Shoot slide because it has better microcontrast, very low grain, very intense colour and you can project it.
You can’t project negative without making a second gen copy.
Projection is in many ways the purest and most overwhelming way to experience film.
You can truly experience and enjoy the superb resolution of film, and understand why it’s important from an artistic PoV, not just as specmanship.

Slide is also very easy to scan.

 

[Kino]

No spot metering but should meet most of your other requirements PLUS aperture priority auto exposure with M42 mount lenses:

Chinon CE-3 Memotron - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

I have a CE II, but it is a tank of a camera. The 3 is 620 grams.

 

[ericB&W]

Thanks! 1/2000 top speed could indeed be useful -- will look into this one.

Remember , to have a right exposure with these cameras you have to open at
max the f. aperture on the camera at f.1,2 with any kind of lens you use, then close the lens
where you want es f.8 and the camera will adapt the right speed required , if you don't
open before at f. 1,2 the value on camera, you'll have a non correct speed reading. .

 

[xkaes]

I actually think a spot meter is a *bad* idea for slide film.

HTH!
Aaron

I agree. The best meter for slide film is an incident meter. The second best thing is a white styrofoam coffee cup over the front of the lens on a camera with a TTL meter. One half of a white L'EGGS pantyhose container or and EXPO-DISC will work too, but are more expensive -- and no coffee.

 

[Lucius]

I'm confused. Is everyone saying -- Helge, Autonerd, xkaes -- that, given a choice between an averaging and a spot meter (let's say you are shooting a Mamiya DTL), you would never ever use the latter for slides? I've looked through the half a dozen slide rolls I shot over the summer with cameras having an averaging meter, and most shots are fairly well exposed -- as long as the scene was evenly lit. I understand that high-contrast scenes aren't the easiest subject for slides, but rather than simply avoiding them, I want to have more control and understanding in shooting them. I guess I may have overstated the practicality of the spot meter in the OP, but I still think it can be a useful tool. Even with an averaging meter, I would often set the exposure as metered off some part of the scene (green grass for example), but this seems rather easier to do with a spot meter. At least, that was my experience when I tested the T70 and the CSR (though I'm still waiting to see the results).

 

[BrianShaw]

I'm confused.

...you would never ever use the latter for slides?

seems rather easier to do with a spot meter. ... (though I'm still waiting to see the results)

Perhaps the confusion is the interpretation that anyone is saying "never ever" but writing of extensive practical experience using non-spot metering for slide film photography. Seems like the message is consistently that much of the time there is easier/better success with a WEIGHTED averaging meter than a spot meter. I, too, have been a bit confused when the use of the term "averaging meter" has been used recently; a true averaging meter sometimes is not as good an estimate of exposure than a center-weighted or matrix metering system. For the most part, this reflect my experience with slides and photography in general. As I may have suggested earlier, some folks like to fuss with metering accuracy/precision and others prefer to have some of that "burden" removed by automation so they can concentrate on other artistic aspects of photography. The key, as you point out, is to be able to recognize when those aids will not be accurate and have a backup plan, which very likely could be a spot meter or and incident light meter. It's all good...

 

[Lucius]

No spot metering but should meet most of your other requirements PLUS aperture priority auto exposure with M42 mount lenses:

Chinon CE-3 Memotron - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

I have a CE II, but it is a tank of a camera. The 3 is 620 grams.

I have both the original CE and the CE-3: the CE is too heavy for my liking, but I keep it for the sake of its top speed of 1/2000; the CE-3 is nice overall (as is the CM-3), but its shutter release button puts up too much resistance, which I think contributes to camera shake.

 

[Lucius]

I just bought a Mamiya 1000dtl + 50mm f2 from the original owner.

This camera was made the year I was born.

Congrats! I'm more or less coeval with the T70, which is far less cool

 

[Jurgen Estanislao]

Just chiming in—the best ones I've used and still have are the following in no specific order:

- Pentax Spotmatic F
- Voigtläender Bessaflex
- Fujica STXXX series