M42(-compatible) camera with spot metering?

[Lucius]

Just chiming in—the best ones I've used and still have are the following in no specific order:

- Pentax Spotmatic F
- Voigtläender Bessaflex
- Fujica STXXX series

If only I could afford the Bessaflex! Is there a reason though you don't single it out as the very best one?

 

[George Mann]

I guess I may have overstated the practicality of the spot meter in the OP, but I still think it can be a useful tool.

Yes, it is a useful tool that has tremendously helped me to achieve a higher success rate with slide film.

I don't understand their bias against it.

 

[Paul Howell]

The are several types of average metering, center average in which some portion of the center of the scene is metered, bottom average in which the meter pattern is not a circle but a large slice of the bottom of the scene with less of the sky, and later Nikon's and others that use a 20 80 pattern. The bottom weighted such as found on the Miranda EE is good for landscapes the foreground is given additional weight, the 20 80 pattern does the same. A matrix meter figures out if you are shooting a landscape, a portrait, a scene that is backlite meaning the light is very bright behind the subject, side lite, one of subject is very bright. While college and later in the AF we were taught to use an incident meter which shoots the flight falling on the subject not reflected from the subject. Spot meters gained popularity with Ansel Adams' version of the Zone System. When freelancing for several newspapers in the 70s I did get jobs to shoot, in those days the Wednesday Supplement, fashion shots with slide film. I always used an incident meter as it provided the best color match the cloths being modeled. In the Air Force, when shooting slides, we always used incident metering. I do not any practical advantage in using a spot meter for slides.

 

[Lucius]

I do not any practical advantage in using a spot meter for slides.

You mean over using an incident meter or a centre-weighted metre? I understand that the incident meter may be the proper tool for slides, but it requires a rather different mode of photography altogether than my walk-around shooting.

 

[Lucius]

Yes, it is a useful tool that has tremendously helped me to achieve a higher success rate with slide film.

I don't understand their bias against it.

Thanks, good to know I'm not entirely delusional!

 

[George Mann]

I do not any practical advantage in using a spot meter for slides.

Not even in severly contrasty situations?

 

[George Mann]

Thanks, good to know I'm not entirely delusional!

The secret is to find the neutral value that provides the best balance of exposure according to the properties of the scene.

 

[George Mann]

When shooting Kodachrome with my old centerweighted Nikkormat, I use to carry an 18% gray card to measure the light falling on the subject.

But you can't always do that if the light where you are is different. So a spot meter can help you here.

 

[Helge]

Congrats! I'm more or less coeval with the T70, which is far less cool

The T70 is way cool.
Read my diatribe from a few years back on the subject.

Ever Shoot a T50?

Speaking of taste, I love the sound of the T50, and to others is fingernails on the chalkboard. I think they vary quite a lot. Of all the T70s I've heard, some sound reluctant and grinding, while others has a smooth satisfying sound to them. Probably has to do with the state of dryness of the...

www.photrio.com

Overall I’d say it’s the best manual focus Canon camera to get for the amateur shooting today.

The “spot meter” in the T70 is more of a “selective meter” since the spot is quite big. So the idea is to put it on the subject at an appropriate place to not have strong backlight or sky influence the exposure.

https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/00266/00266.pdf

I'm confused. Is everyone saying -- Helge, Autonerd, xkaes -- that, given a choice between an averaging and a spot meter (let's say you are shooting a Mamiya DTL), you would never ever use the latter for slides? I've looked through the half a dozen slide rolls I shot over the summer with cameras having an averaging meter, and most shots are fairly well exposed -- as long as the scene was evenly lit. I understand that high-contrast scenes aren't the easiest subject for slides, but rather than simply avoiding them, I want to have more control and understanding in shooting them. I guess I may have overstated the practicality of the spot meter in the OP, but I still think it can be a useful tool. Even with an averaging meter, I would often set the exposure as metered off some part of the scene (green grass for example), but this seems rather easier to do with a spot meter. At least, that was my experience when I tested the T70 and the CSR (though I'm still waiting to see the results).

A spot meter can absolutely be useful. But the only ones who insist on it are people living in the Zone system.
I have a Pentax Zone VI and the spot attachment for the Lunasix F, but it’s been years since I used them.
When you’ve gotten the almost exact same measurements a hundred times from a center weighted meter and the spot meter, but the latter metering process takes ten times as long to arrive at the same result, you stop bothering.
There are a few high contrast scenes where it could possibly be better though.

 

[Paul Howell]

You mean over using an incident meter or a centre-weighted metre? I understand that the incident meter may be the proper tool for slides, but it requires a rather different mode of photography altogether than my walk-around shooting.

Sorry I was not clear, I do see any advantage of spot metering, for walk about I would use a mid level 90s camera with matrix metering, if in really tricky lighting you might need to bracket. Color film including slide film has gotten so expensive use the best tool.

 

[Autonerd]

Not even in severly contrasty situations?

I would say no, because a spot meter still requires you to find the element that is middle gray -- and the auto-exposure system of our eyes makes it much less sensitive to variations of light than film is.

I actually can't see why a high-contrast situation would be any trickier for a center-weighted averaging meter. (I could be way off here -- if so, please educate me.) The extremes may be higher, but the meter is still trying to find an average. A spot meter, I would think, would be trickier here -- either you have to find something that is middle gray, or you have to meter off bright and dark bits of the scene and come up with an exposure right between them (which is what the averaging meter is doing anyway).

The situations that can really throw off an averaging meter are very bright scenes (a model dressed in a white ski suit on snow with a cloudy gray sky above) or very dark scenes (a dark blue car against a black wall). I don't see how a spot meter would make life much easier in any of those situations, not without a gray card handy. Regardless of which meter one has, one still has to know this is a tricky situation which will require some change from what the meter indicates.

I have always been under the impression that the most useful application of a spot meter is shooting the zone system, and that implies compensation in development, which is unlikely to happen with E-6 processing. I know some people use spot for digital when they are trying to saturate the sensor to get maximum info in their .RAW file -- but that's now what you want to do with slide film, where your exposure also controls your final image lightness.

Aaron

 

[Autonerd]

The “spot meter” in the T70 is more of a “selective meter” since the spot is quite big. So the idea is to put it on the subject at an appropriate place to not have strong backlight or sky influence the exposure.

View attachment 329605

Okay, yes -- the photo of the model in front of the gray sky is a good example of where a spot meter would work over a center-weight, though you could also accomplish the same thing by moving closer to the subject to meter then farther away to shoot. I still think it's a rare one, though. And one does need some averaging here. If one (to take an extreme example) were to spot meter off either the white or black stripes on her shirt, the exposure would be off. Spot metering off her face would work (though not if her complexion was much darker or lighter) but hair and eyes would be no good. This is a situation, I think, where one needs to know one's meter, and that a bright sky requires either opening up a couple of stops or using fill flash.

Aaron

 

[BrianShaw]

I actually can't see why a high-contrast situation would be any trickier for a center-weighted averaging meter. (I could be way off here -- if so, please educate me.) The extremes may be higher, but the meter is still trying to find an average. A spot meter, I would think, would be trickier here -- either you have to find something that is middle gray, or you have to meter off bright and dark bits of the scene and come up with an exposure right between them (which is what the averaging meter is doing anyway).

I don't know about "trickier" but more time consuming. The measurement of high and low and "average" is how many people use a spot meter. Should be a reading that an incident meter would give.

You are not way off about center-weighted metering; not even slightly off.

 

[xkaes]

The secret is to find the neutral value that provides the best balance of exposure according to the properties of the scene.

Exactly, and that's exactly what an incident meter does -- without having to figure out a "neutral value" in the scene.

 

[xkaes]

I would say no, because a spot meter still requires you to find the element that is middle gray -- and the auto-exposure system of our eyes makes it much less sensitive to variations of light than film is.

Aaron

You nailed it. I dare anyone to find a middle grey in a ski area where everything is bright snow or pitch-black pine trees. An incident meter (or "coffee cup") solves the problem.

 

[xkaes]

I don't know about "trickier" but more time consuming. The measurement of high and low and "average" is how many people use a spot meter. Should be a reading that an incident meter would give.

And many (most?) meters -- excluding spot-only meters -- have a sliding incident cone built-in.

 

[Helge]

You nailed it. I dare anyone to find a middle grey in a ski area where everything is bright snow or pitch-black pine trees. An incident meter (or "coffee cup" solves the problem.

Or a gray card used right.

 

[George Mann]

I would say no, because a spot meter still requires you to find the element that is middle gray

The middle grey of a scene is not always what you need for slide film. It takes years of experience to learn the correct ways to meter for it.

Slide film can be the best way to master exposure.

 

[Helge]

The middle grey of a scene is not always what you need for slide film. It takes years of experience to learn the correct ways to meter for it.

Slide film can be the best way to master exposure.

Good point! It’s much worse to overexpose than underexpose a bit with slide. At least if you care for highlights.
I’ve had slide that was grossly underexposed (two stops) where I was able to pull a semi useable image from what appeared to be a little black square.

Exposure also depends on whether you want to project.
In that case you better not underexpose more than a stop and a half.

With under exposure colour starts to wander in the shade. Might not look bad, but that is a matter of taste.

 

[r_a_feldman]

Good point! It’s much worse to overexpose than underexpose a bit with slide. At least if you care for highlights.
I’ve had slide that was grossly underexposed (two stops) where I was able to pull a semi useable image from what appeared to be a little black square.

There is a trick I learned almost 50 years ago (well before digital imaging) to rescue underexposed slides: With your camera on a copy stand, put the slide on a mirror and rephotograph the slide. The light has to pass twice through the slide, doubling its density.

 

[Kino]

There is a trick I learned almost 50 years ago (well before digital imaging) to rescue underexposed slides: With your camera on a copy stand, put the slide on a mirror and rephotograph the slide. The light has to pass twice through the slide, doubling its density.

Hey, that's a neat trick! Thanks!

 

[Autonerd]

Good point! It’s much worse to overexpose than underexpose a bit with slide. At least if you care for highlights.

Gotta disagree with you, Helge. Back In The Day, I was taught to shoot 50-speed Fuji Velvia with the camera set to 40 -- a little bit of overexposure really made the colors pop. They used to do that routinely at the magazine where I worked.

Aaron

 

[Helge]

Gotta disagree with you, Helge. Back In The Day, I was taught to shoot 50-speed Fuji Velvia with the camera set to 40 -- a little bit of overexposure really made the colors pop. They used to do that routinely at the magazine where I worked.

Aaron

That’s very very slight overexposure. Not even half a stop.
Velvia 50 is special in its density too.
And magazine separation plates also has other requirements than projection or scanning to look best.

 

[Autonerd]

This has been a great discussion, all -- I'm learning a lot and enjoying everyone's opinions.

Aaron

 

[Lucius]

Read my diatribe from a few years back on the subject.

Thanks for the link, your diatribe and the ensuing discussion are incredibly instructive and entertaining!

I guess my main issue with the T70 is I can't find a comfortable grasp that would allow me to press the exposure lock button.