Looking to begin (again) reversal processing black and white film

[Pentaxian]

Years ago, I took some photography classes in college. In one of them, I decided it would be fun to reversal process black and white negatives. It's been so long that I no longer have the few notes I took of the process, and I'd guarantee that I'd be unable to decipher my handwriting if I could find them.

I did happen to come across the website that I used to perfect the process as well as a horrible student could perfect anything. It argues that a first developer must have a silver solvent in it but later claims that Rodinal is fine. IIRC, I used Rodinal, and it seemed to work fine. But, tbh, I was inexperienced with the process, so "fine" to younger me might be horrible to someone that knows what they're doing

Does anyone here have a favorite developer for reversal processing B&W film? I dont mind experimenting a bit with different ones, but I'd at least like to be pointed in the right direction before wandering off. I'm also not opposed to mixing up a developer from individual ingredients if they're not too hard to get.

Also, a few side questions: What is your favorite film to use for reversal processing? I used FP4+ back in the day, and it's fortunately still around. Do faster films do well as slower ones when reversal processing? IIRC, I had to overexpose FP4+ by a couple of stops, so having something a tad faster would be convenient.

Sorry if these are dumb questions, but I appreciate anyone who takes the time to answer

 

[Craig]

This website gives a recipie for the first developer, which is a slightly modified D76.

https://imager.ie/image/posts/black-and-white-reversal-with-hydrogen-peroxide/ReversalProcessing-HansDietrich.pdf

 

[Molli]

I've just recently done some paper negative reversals so I'm basically just here to say I'm not of much use. However, I DO want to reverse film at some stage so have been assiduously hoarding notes and links whenever I come across them. As I have Potassium Permanganate and Sodium Bisulphate on hand, I'll be following Ilford's instructions.

Your questions aren't at all dumb, by the way. Part of the reason I'm replying is in the hope of drawing more attention to your post so that I, too, can reap the benefit of your asking and the clever cookies here answering.

Ilford's Black and White Film Reversal Instructions Online:

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/reversal-processing/?___store=ilford_brochure&___from_store=ilford_uk

A link to their pdf to download for offline/hard copy print out:

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/REVERSAL-180619.pdf

A link to The Naked Photographer's YouTube video guide:

 

[Jojje]

Back in the 90's I did my share of experimenting, postponed for family reasons and later it wasn't feasible any more. Lessons I learned: be very consistent and always use fresh chemicals. ISO 400 films I tried didn't have contrast enough to my liking when reverse processed.
I had information from L.P. Clerc: Photography: Theory and practice as a starting point.

 

[Pentaxian]

Thanks for the responses so far. Gives me stuff to think about.

Now that I’m away from home, and feel like I know where a box of old developed film is. I’ll see if there’s some old slides in it

 

[koraks]

As I have Potassium Permanganate and Sodium Bisulphate on hand

Bisulfite, not sulfate!

 

[Anon Ymous]

Bisulfite, not sulfate!

Both can be used in reversal processing. Bisulfite can be used in place of metabisulfite. Bisulfate can be used in place of sulfuric acid. Sodium bisulfate is partially neutralised sulfuric acid (NaHSO4).

Edit: I suspect @Molli would used sodium bisulfate instead of sulfuric acid.

 

[koraks]

Referencing to the Ilford formulas I assumed he intended to use bisulfite.

 

[Molli]

Both can be used in reversal processing. Bisulfite can be used in place of metabisulfite. Bisulfate can be used in place of sulfuric acid. Sodium bisulfate is partially neutralised sulfuric acid (NaHSO4).

Edit: I suspect @Molli would used sodium bisulfate instead of sulfuric acid.

Yes, it was easier for me to get Sodium Bisulphate than sulfuric acid. I used that and Potassium Permanganate for my bleach with paper negative reversals and Metabisulphite as a clearing agent. Apparently I can make the same substitution with film reversals, but I've yet to try it.

Apologies to Koraks - I was mixing the two processes (Ilford's and an alternative) when I was writing which very easily leads to confusion. Thank you, Koraks, and you Anon Ymous for allowing me to clarify what I meant and should have written out properly in the first place.

 

[koraks]

Apologies on my end for erroneously assuming you were confusing the two chemicals It's a common error that's made my many - but not by everyone!

 

[Molli]

Not a problem at all. For one thing, I did write out what I was doing in a cross-contanimated way, so to speak and, also, I ordered sulphate a few years ago because I'd typed it so often on my phone that auto-correct "over corrected" when I intended to type Sulphite.

SO, no apology necessary, I know how easily i, a and o insert themselves into chemical names, so I do try to double check myself.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Reversal and projection is how I shoot my film.
One day in 2016 I stumbled upon Ilford Reversal Processing PDF and it just put me into my darkbathroom for good. Started with Delta 100 for solid couple of years, then experimented with various films until I realized that literally any BW film can be reversed. C-41 and E-6 films too if feeling weird. Key factors are: 1st developer + silver solvent (if needed by particular stock, T-grain films need a lot) and bleach.

I'd ask myself a question: why am I choosing to shoot and develop slides? Because that could dictate the choice of film.
If your target format is projection or scanning, you might want to choose films on clear bases (PET or clear Triacetate) as they make bright, juicy slides that are easier to scan. Gray Acetate base is usable too, but it'll act as a projection ND filter, darkening the image, muddying the highlights and suffocating shadows a bit. And it loves to bulge due to the projection lamp heat.
What I've observed shooting stock on PET base (most of clear base BW films) - it handles heat like a champ, doesn't bulge and that extra thin slide keeps flat, improving focusing and negating the need for AN glass to keep slide flat. And that's beautiful - no AN pattern to project, no condensation to risk mold developing in that glass and film sandwich, no glass to clean periodically due to oxidation of its surfaces.


Favorite film? Years ago I'd answer Delta 100, but that'd be uneducated perspective, having used only that. Now, however, I have a solid background to compare my choices to. But Delta 100 remains as one of possible choices on gray base for me due to its raw performance and T-grain.

On Flickr (and forum signature here) I have links with examples how each film I've shot looks reversed in PQ Universal - adjustments being 1) development time; 2) silver solvent quantity (if needed); 3) Agitation scheme.
All scanned with Plustek 7600i Ai. Some edits in LR to better match projection from memory + sharpening and dusting.

 

[Pentaxian]

I'd ask myself a question: why am I choosing to shoot and develop slides? Because that could dictate the choice of film.
If your target format is projection or scanning, you might want to choose films on clear bases (PET or clear Triacetate) as they make bright, juicy slides that are easier to scan. Gray Acetate base is usable too, but it'll act as a projection ND filter, darkening the image, muddying the highlights and suffocating shadows a bit.

I did find an old box of film that had a few rolls of reversal processed FP4 (and there's probably a bit of Arista.edu films in there, too). I see what you mean about the colored base. I dont recall it being an issue projecting back in college, but I was probably too inexperienced to notice. I've googled that the Foma black and white films have a clear base, so I might pick up one of them to experiment with to begin with.

 

[Donald Qualls]

the Foma black and white films have a clear base,

Not in 35 mm, based on my recent experience (processed two weeks ago). Perhaps that was 120?

 

[Pentaxian]

Not in 35 mm, based on my recent experience (processed two weeks ago). Perhaps that was 120?

possibly. A miniscule bit of internet searching suggests 120 more commonly has a clear base. Perhaps I should pick up a Mamiya and a MF projector

 

[relistan]

This website gives a recipie for the first developer, which is a slightly modified D76.

https://imager.ie/image/posts/black-and-white-reversal-with-hydrogen-peroxide/ReversalProcessing-HansDietrich.pdf

That's my website (but not my article). I collected together a bunch of the older articles to reference in my post on better peroxide bleaches.

The critical thing in that link is that the first developer is like D-76 *but* has a bunch of sodium thiosulfate in it, which is fixer. That is the solvent that is used to accelerate the first developer and make sure that the end result has clear highlights. There are better solvents (e.g. thiocyanates), but I personally did a bunch of reversal development with the peroxide bleaches described on my website and using Ilford Multigrade paper developer as the first and second developer. The first developer had 2-4 grams of sodium thiosulfate added. This varies by film. You can see the results on my website.

 

[relistan]

possibly. A miniscule bit of internet searching suggests 120 more commonly has a clear base. Perhaps I should pick up a Mamiya and a MF projector

Foma films in 35mm don't have a clear base but *do* reverse very well. Foma 120 films have a clear base. This is Fomapan 400 reversed in 35mm:

 

[madsox]

I'm just tagging on here to get ideas and notifications about this topic - I never did B&W reversal processing in my previous photo life (never even realized it was "a thing" actually). Now that I'm sorting through the old film gear, the idea is a very interesting one that I want to learn about. So here I am.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

I've googled that the Foma black and white films have a clear base

This depends very much on particular stock and manufacturer - quite often you have a situation where film X is coated on your gray Triacetate in 135 and on clear base in 120 and sheet film, it depends.

It's not that the gray base is a game ending no-no - it's just that stuff on clear base just is more suitable for this in every way possible.

 

[YoIaMoNwater]

I had good results using Rodinal as first dev (without solvent) and HC-110 as second dev: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/bnw-reversal-attempts.179724/page-5#post-2386335

@relistan helped me to get some densitometry readings: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/bnw-reversal-attempts.179724/page-6#post-2433723

On page 6 and 7 there are also other films I have tested. I’ll prob have to send them to Karl at some point in the future to get the density readings.

Out of all the films I’ve tested, probably Rollei Superpan 200/Retro 400S is my favorite.

 

[relistan]

Having seen @YoIaMoNwater ‘s results in person, they are good. If you are looking for a starting point with it you might read through the work he did.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Rollei Superpan 200/Retro 400S is my favorite

What bleach did you use, and what EI did you shoot at?

 

[YoIaMoNwater]

What bleach did you use, and what EI did you shoot at?

Permanganate bleach at ISO 200.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Permanganate bleach at ISO 200.

Thanks. I've got several rolls of Catlabs 320 that's said to be the same film (Aviphot 200); I've been wanting to try reversal on a clear-base 120 anyway. Looks like I need to get busy...

 

[crockodile]

Foma films in 35mm don't have a clear base but *do* reverse very well. Foma 120 films have a clear base. This is Fomapan 400 reversed in 35mm:

View attachment 328296

What EI did you shoot this at?