Looking for the perfect mechanical SLR

[RLangham]

Have had 10+ electronic canons and 10+ electronic minoltas and never had an issue. Timings on all electronic shutters is a lot more precise overtime compared to mechanical.Not becuase of the shutter mechanism but becuase of the timing mechanism. Its just the technology limitation. Regular CLA fixes that on mechanical cameras but I rather spend more money on film. One of the MAIN reason i use electronic camereas "appart from my 5 folders and Fujy 6x9" is I dont have to worry about wrong shutter times. I already spend a good amount on my folders CLA.

What kind of climate do you have there?

 

[Radost]

The chance of that making a big timing difference is extremely small. Compared to mechanical cameras where the mechanism will just go kaput.
mans if the electronic shutter camera goes from 1/125 to 1/130 it’s not a big difference.

The timing of the electronic circuit can be very precise but the shutter current travel time is determined by the spring tension and thus the shutter speed can be different even if the timing is right on.

appening

 

[Huss]

Have had 10+ electronic canons and 10+ electronic minoltas and never had an issue. Timings on all electronic shutters is a lot more precise overtime compared to mechanical.Not becuase of the shutter mechanism but becuase of the timing mechanism. Its just the technology limitation. Regular CLA fixes that on mechanical cameras but I rather spend more money on film. One of the MAIN reason i use electronic camereas "appart from my 5 folders and Fujy 6x9" is I dont have to worry about wrong shutter times. I already spend a good amount on my folders CLA.

Living in SoCal, I've had 2 Minolta CLEs fail, one Minolta XK, one Minolta XE5, one Nikon FE2, one Nikon EM, one Pentax LX, one Chinon Bellami.

 

[Radost]

Living in SoCal, I've had 2 Minolta CLEs fail, one Minolta XK, one Minolta XE5, one Nikon FE2, one Nikon EM, one Pentax LX, one Chinon Bellami.

Fail how? Was it a mechanical fail or electronic fail? Especially interested in what failed on the CLE?

 

[Chan Tran]

The chance of that making a big timing difference is extremely small. Compared to mechanical cameras where the mechanism will just go kaput.
mans if the electronic shutter camera goes from 1/125 to 1/130 it’s not a big difference.


appening

Shutter speed above flash sync speed can be off something like 30% due to the front and rear shutter curtain travel time. Below the flash sync speed there is little difference. In fact at near 1 sec time the shutter speed becomes purely electronic. At top speed the shutter speed is mostly mechanical dependent.

 

[Radost]

Shutter speed above flash sync speed can be off something like 30% due to the front and rear shutter curtain travel time. Below the flash sync speed there is little difference. In fact at near 1 sec time the shutter speed becomes purely electronic. At top speed the shutter speed is mostly mechanical dependent.

I take electronicly control shutter accuaracy over mechanical one "over time".
Rolex watch standard is 1-2 seconds a day which is on par with the cheapest "worst" quartz electronic watches.
More moving parts = More inacuracy and failure

 

[RLangham]

I take electronicly control shutter accuaracy over mechanical one "over time".
Rolex watch standard is 1-2 seconds a day which is on par with the cheapest "worst" quartz electronic watches.
More moving parts = More inacuracy and failure

I dunno, I'd take the ones that only require one difficult skillset of my repairman, not two.

Old electronics become difficult to work on because when the microcontrollers go out, no one's making replacements, and it's the same part that often hoes out on every other camera you might sacrifice for parts. Plus you're liable to ruin the components while soldering them in unless you're REALLY good.

Whereas different parts wear out on mechanical cameras due to subtle physical differences and can often be replaced from non-functioning parts cameras, making repairs more economical. Moreover you don't have to memorize circuit maps to know the slightest thing about what you're doing.

In point of fact I just did a rudimentary CLA on a Soviet Leica clone, and I'm a twenty-two year old hick with no specialized tools and no training besides a one-page document on disassembly.

 

[Chan Tran]

I take electronicly control shutter accuaracy over mechanical one "over time".
Rolex watch standard is 1-2 seconds a day which is on par with the cheapest "worst" quartz electronic watches.
More moving parts = More inacuracy and failure

The accuracy of the now true electronic shutter in digital camera can be as accurate as the quartz watches but the mechanical electronically controlled shutter in the film camera is far from that. At top shutter speed there isn't much of a different between electronic and and mechanical (for example and F2 and F3 at 1/2000). At 1/60 the F3 generally are better and at 1 second the F3 is absolutely better than the F2.

 

[BradS]

The loathing of electronics is based upon fear of the unknown, and argument based upon a seemingly reasonable but likely false or, at best, irrelevant premise and little or no actual data.

 

[RLangham]

The loathing of electronics is based upon fear of the unknown, and argument based upon a seemingly reasonable but likely false or, at best, irrelevant premise and little or no actual data.

Respectfully, more than one of us in this thread have a good deal of anecdotal evidence that in humid climates, electronics fail at a higher rate. While this doesn't amount to actual rigorously collected data, it is suggestive.

 

[choiliefan]

Old German electronics are especially crappy.

 

[BradS]

Respectfully, more than one of us in this thread have a good deal of anecdotal evidence that in humid climates, electronics fail at a higher rate. While this doesn't amount to actual rigorously collected data, it is suggestive.

It is true. Many failure modes - both electrical and mechanical - are well known to be accelerated by heat and humidity. This is rigorously documented - not just anecdotal. In fact, film does not do particularly well in hot and humid climates either.

 

[RLangham]

It is true. Many failure modes - both electrical and mechanical - are well known to be accelerated by heat and humidity. This is rigorously documented - not just anecdotal. In fact, film does not do particularly well in hot and humid climates either.

You don't know how long I tried to click that underlined phrase thinking it was a link!

I wonder however... most mechanical cameras are older than most electromechanical cameras. If at the present time they have a similar failure rate in humid climates... would that not speak to an increased durability of mechanical cameras, since they lasted longer on average?

At any rate I prefer the metal construction, weight and battery-independence of mechanical cameras in addition to what I perceive to be better durability, so my preference is not entirely founded on that perceived durability.

I will note however, that there are very reputable techs who won't touch purely electronic problems, meaning that there is the practical problem of finding a tech who can. I don't believe Mike Trost does electronics, though he'll work on mechanical problems in electronic cameras. And he's a very good tech.

 

[Chan Tran]

You don't know how long I tried to click that underlined phrase thinking it was a link!

I wonder however... most mechanical cameras are older than most electromechanical cameras. If at the present time they have a similar failure rate in humid climates... would that not speak to an increased durability of mechanical cameras, since they lasted longer on average?

At any rate I prefer the metal construction, weight and battery-independence of mechanical cameras in addition to what I perceive to be better durability, so my preference is not entirely founded on that perceived durability.

I will note however, that there are very reputable techs who won't touch purely electronic problems, meaning that there is the practical problem of finding a tech who can. I don't believe Mike Trost does electronics, though he'll work on mechanical problems in electronic cameras. And he's a very good tech.

I do think it makes sense that a good tech in mechanical camera doesn't want to work on an electronic problem. The reason? He may not know it well. The tech that do understand electronic may not have the skill to disassemble and reassemble a delicate camera.

 

[markjwyatt]

If I can get electronic cameras really inexpensively, I am happy to use them. If I have to make a large investment in an electronic camera with no known electronics part supply chain, I would think more than twice about it. Mechanical cameras can be made to work in many situations. Plus cameras built in the mechanical age were better built to start in many cases.

 

[BradS]

... cameras built in the mechanical age were better built to start in many cases.

A good observation and an important confounding factor that is well worth considering.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Plus cameras built in the mechanical age were better built to start in many cases.

Things aren't as good as they used to be; they never were.

 

[Huss]

Fail how? Was it a mechanical fail or electronic fail? Especially interested in what failed on the CLE?

Electronic failure. Both CLEs just locked up. Dave Easterwood fixed one of them - he told me he took the entire thing apart, and cleaned/resoldered every single connector. Years of oxidation had taken its toll, even though it was pristine looking.
I sold it after I got it back. The other one failed a few months after I sold it, and I was made aware of this by the buyer. But I had sold it in working condition - it had no issues in my care - but was told it was the same malady. I gave him Easterwood's info.

 

[Radost]

The amount of computerized design and precision manifacuring from the later part of the 90s early 2000s forward is unmatched by anything made before that.
The myth of "OLDER IS BETTER" "THEY DONT MAKE IT LIKE THAT ANYMORE" is BullShit and has not a single grain of truth when it comes to technology and engineering.

My canon Elan 7NE from 18 years ago have been dropped, beaten, used and abused and I doubt any other camera from the 20th century can even come close to the reability and quality of manifacturing. I can bet My Elan and many early 2000s SLRs will outlive every other camera from any other era.

 

[choiliefan]

Has the back door latch broken on your Elan 7 yet?

 

[RLangham]

Has the back door latch broken on your Elan 7 yet?

Good point. I had one that someone gave me when they downgraded to a APS-C DSLR. The latch didn't break but I gave it to my cousin when the latch on his EOS Rebel broke.

 

[markjwyatt]

The amount of computerized design and precision manifacuring from the later part of the 90s early 2000s forward is unmatched by anything made before that.
The myth of "OLDER IS BETTER" "THEY DONT MAKE IT LIKE THAT ANYMORE" is BullShit and has not a single grain of truth when it comes to technology and engineering...

In some ways you are correct, especially in the 2000s. For optics, modern lenses have many elements with good coatings, and are computer designed in ways that were not possible before because lack of computational power. Modern lenses can reproduce lens charts better than older ones for sure. And structurally, fatigue, etc., with FEA and other computational methods, designers can design components and systems so they do not fail as easily. On the other hand, how long do they design them to last? 10 years? 20 years? Next model? Cameras designed in the 20s-50s were designed to last forever (they did not succeed completely for sure). They were over designed. Many older cameras had very heavy bodies , frame and structure. They also had weak points, and this is where they fail.

My canon Elan 7NE from 18 years ago have been dropped, beaten, used and abused and I doubt any other camera from the 20th century can even come close to the reability and quality of manifacturing. I can bet My Elan and many early 2000s SLRs will outlive every other camera from any other era.

Maybe. As long as you can keep the electronics going.


I just feel you have a better chance with an older, simpler, well built mechanical camera as long as repairs are available. My Konica Big Mini is a great travel camera. I just hope it does not end up bricking at some point.

 

[BradS]

Typical electronics failures are fairly easy to repair. Lots of chatter about ICs failing but they don’t normally fail. The vast majority of electrical failures are related to oxidation, corrosion and mechanical fatigue. In the following example, both battery wires are severely corroded and one has broken off completely.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Typical electronics failures are fairly easy to repair.

Indeed, the difficult part is usually the disassembly and reassembly.

 

[Radost]

In some ways you are correct, especially in the 2000s. For optics, modern lenses have many elements with good coatings, and are computer designed in ways that were not possible before because lack of computational power. Modern lenses can reproduce lens charts better than older ones for sure. And structurally, fatigue, etc., with FEA and other computational methods, designers can design components and systems so they do not fail as easily. On the other hand, how long do they design them to last? 10 years? 20 years? Next model? Cameras designed in the 20s-50s were designed to last forever (they did not succeed completely for sure). They were over designed. Many older cameras had very heavy bodies , frame and structure. They also had weak points, and this is where they fail.




Maybe. As long as you can keep the electronics going.


I just feel you have a better chance with an older, simpler, well built mechanical camera as long as repairs are available. My Konica Big Mini is a great travel camera. I just hope it does not end up bricking at some point.

The primitive design of older cameras and mechanical shutter desing need lubricarion and general CLA.
Also for every older camera still being used there are plenty that have failed and broken.