Looking for a cost efficient quality C-41 kit

Thanks for the info. The bleach I am using is Kodak RA bleach replenisher. I believe Kodak Z-131 says to use it as bleach and replenisher for itself as well. Since I am not a volume user I really need not to consider replenishment. I don't seem to have bleaching problem yet. I will keep aerating it before use and continue to use it. I have seen post on this forum saying one can use a liter of Kodak C-41 bleach for hundreds of 120 rolls. I actually have a few 5L bottles so I will not worry about it for now. I won't toss old bleach. Once I accumulate to certain quantity then will try to add some Ammonium Chloride and adjust PH with some acid. If it works that's great. If not then so be it.

mtjade2007 said:

The bleach I am using is Kodak RA bleach replenisher. I believe Kodak Z-131 says to use it as bleach and replenisher for itself as well

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Hi, I don't think that's exactly correct. I say this because table 1-5 (in Z-131) gives different "specific gravity" values for the replenisher vs tank solution. (Specific gravity essentially compares how heavy something is compared to water; water has a specific gravity = 1.)

Looking at the average of specific gravity aim values, the RA bleach replenisher sp gr = 1.160, whereas the working tank solution sp gr = 1.145. So clearly there is a bit of dilution intended for the working tank. That's probably not a big deal, but if you look at the pH values from cis-61 you can see that the replenisher aim for RA bleach is pH 4.00, whereas the fresh tank aim is pH = 4.60. This is outside of the tolerances, so I'm guessing you'll want to adjust the pH. (Note that with bleach iii, a different style, the pH spec ranges overlap each other, so probably no pH adjustment is strictly necessary for it.)

mtjade2007 said:

Since I am not a volume user I really need not to consider replenishment.

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Since you are considering "doctoring" your bleach at some point, I'm don't see why to not use a replenisher. It would contain anything you might need to add, although it would at least "want" a pH adjustment. But upward - the opposite of what acetic acid would do.

Mr Bill said:

Looking at the average of specific gravity aim values, the RA bleach replenisher sp gr = 1.160, whereas the working tank solution sp gr = 1.145. So clearly there is a bit of dilution intended for the working tank.

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There is a starter for C-41 bleaches, but everything I've read (including from Photo Engineer, Ron Mowrey) says you can use the bleach in "small tank" without the starter. This works because bleaching is carried to completion anyway; as I understand it, the only reason for the starter is pH control for carry-over in machine process that has no wash steps between color developer, bleach, and fixer.

It was confusing to me for some years. But the z131 table 3-5 and 4-1 clearly state that Flexicolor RA Bleach NR is used as bleach and replenisher as well. I got my RA bleach NR 5L bottles from a Kodak chemical distributor in Los Angeles before it was closed for good. I was told specifically and confirmed by a mini-lab owner who took me to the distributor to use the bleach replenisher as the bleach. I used it as told and had no problems but had the doubt in mind for years. Then I confirmed it from the z-131. I do not have a chemistry background. I still don't know why the RA bleach can bleach the negative in one minute. I usually do it for 2 -3 minutes just in case because the bleach is reused so many times. By the way the distributor was in a warehouse full of piles and piles of lab supplies. I was truly surprised to see the stockpile of chemicals there. I was shocked to find that everything there would be completely gone and refilled on a weekly basis. That includes all kinds of Kodak and Fuji films. That was only 20 years ago.

Many thanks to Bill and to Donald as well. I will buy a cheap digital PH meter from eBay and try to regenerate my old RA bleach. I dislike the idea of tossing the black liquid to the drain. I know it's probably harmless but if it can be reused why the waste?

With Kodak chemicals, the RA standard for Rapid Access. Flexicolor RA is intended to be used in machines that run something like fifteen minutes dry to dry -- shortened development, shortened bleach, shortened fix cycle. I have Flexicolor LORR -- LOw Replenishment Rate -- because it's more economical to use if you can replenish your developer (or even if you one-shot, because you need less developer replenisher for a tank solution mix).

BTW, I don't know that I'd put spent bleach down a drain -- not sure it's bad, but it's easy enough to mix it with spent fixer and take it to your local haz-waste site instead...

Donald Qualls said:

There is a starter for C-41 bleaches, but everything I've read (including from Photo Engineer, Ron Mowrey) says you can use the bleach in "small tank" without the starter.

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Hi, I think that if you look more carefully you'll probably find that PE (Ron) was referring to "bleach III," not the "RA bleach." I'm saying this specifically based on the pH specs in cis-61. The bleach III pH specs say: replen pH = 4.50 +/- 0.25, whereas the tank solution pH = 4.75 +/- 0.25. In other words the spec tolerance for the tank solution is from pH 4.50 to 5.00, so a center-of-spec replenisher, at pH = 4.50, also meets the tank solution spec.

RA bleach, on the other hand, has larger pH differences between the replenisher vs tank solution, where the tolerances do not overlap. As a note I've been referring to simply "RA Bleach," whereas the data I'm referencing is more specific, using "RA Bleach NR." (In Kodak lingo NR generally means non-regenerated, and typically runs at lower replenishment rates.)

Of course it's possible that there is a version of RA Bleach that is not NR, with different pH specs; I dunno.

Donald Qualls said:

...as I understand it, the only reason for the starter is pH control for carry-over in machine process that has no wash steps between color developer, bleach,...

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Not exactly... this is why the bleach replenisher has a lower pH - so it can counteract the pH-raising effect of developer carried over into the processing tank bleach. But the bleach starter is intended to produce the correct pH in the tank solution even before any processing is ever done. So the machine configuration irrelevant to the use of starter solution.

But, as I just said, the, Bleach III pH spec values overlap enough that it's probably ok to use without a starter. This is what I expect that PE is saying. (But I didn't look him up, so I could be wrong.)

mtjade2007 said:

But the z131 table 3-5 and 4-1 clearly state that Flexicolor RA Bleach NR is used as bleach and replenisher as well.

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Well, sort of. The tables are specific about what versions of replenisher to use, but they don't specify the exact treatment to turn a replenisher into a tank solution. That specific data is probably on the chemical packages, etc.

But as Donald indicates, in some (many?) cases it's acceptable to use bleach or fix replenisher directly in the process tank. It's just a little wasteful and sometimes not quite within pH spec. But probably works ok most of the time. You might occasionally find a certain film that's more susceptible to leuco cyan dye from a pH that's slightly low, but... most hobbyists wouldn't be able to recognize that anyway.

mtjade2007 said:

By the way the distributor was in a warehouse full of piles and piles of lab supplies. I was truly surprised to see the stockpile of chemicals there. I was shocked to find that everything there would be completely gone and refilled on a weekly basis.

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You would have probably been double or triple shocked if you had ever seen the outfit where I worked. In our main facility we ran through something like 5 or 6 thousand gallons of replenisher per day, although the vast majority was for RA4, the paper process. Mass market portrait work, mainly. And yes, anything that was sensible to regenerate was regenerated.

But my personal experience was mostly prior to even the bleach III. The company did eventually use bleach III, but I was working in different areas by then... so no direct experience with it. But functionally it does the same thing and is affected by the same things - carryover and replenisher rates.

mtjade2007 said:

I will buy a cheap digital PH meter from eBay and try to regenerate my old RA bleach.

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The pH meter would probably be useful if you're trying to use a replenisher. But from what I see about the RA bleach it seems to only be in an "NR" version, which is "non regenerated" in Kodak lingo. If that's the case they won't have a regenerator mix for it.

If you try to use a replenished bleach system, you'll probably find that it gets overly diluted - the replenishers are formulated for machines using squeegee. So you'll probably be bringing along twice the carryover, maybe more. So if you're gonna try this with a tank/reel setup, might be worth getting a hydrometer (and clear cylinder) to keep track of the specific gravity. It MIGHT BE possible to leave the bleach in an open container until evaporation brings the sp gr back into spec - I've never tried it though, so just speculation. I don't know exactly what's in the RA Bleach... secondary problems might arise. If this happens to work ok, then all you'd have to do is periodically adjust the pH.

Best luck.

I understand there is no regenerator made from Kodak for RA bleach NR. I also know Kodak says no regeneration of this bleach. I am just curious why not. My understanding about how the bleach gets exhausted is bromide been used up. And the PH gets lowered by developer carrying over. The bromide issue can be compensated by adding Ammonium Chloride to the exhausted bleach. The acidity can be adjusted by adding some acetic acid and checked with a PH meter. This idea could be very wrong since I am not a chemist. But I got the information from reading posts about bleach regeneration from the past. Please disregard this if it is very wrong. I can live with just keep replenishing or replacing the exhausted RA bleach. However if it is not completely ridiculous I hope someone with the right knowledge could entertain us with the right suggestions. Thanks, Bill. Oh, by the way, yes, it is quite shocking that your facility used that much huge volume of replenisher. I use a JOBO ATL rotary machine. It probably makes thing even more complicated and not worth the effort to regenerate the bleach.

mtjade2007 said:

I also know Kodak says no regeneration of this bleach. I am just curious why not.

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Hi, everything is pretty much about the economics of the thing. The traditional regenerated bleach system runs at some sort of "reasonable" replenishment rate, and you collect the overflow. When you are ready to regenerate you start with some specified proportion (according to the instructions) of the intended mix size, something like 85% might not be too far off, and then you add a "regenerator" package and top off to the intended final volume. A pH adjustment may be needed, and now you can use this mix as replenisher.

Now, this mix is gonna probably be a little off-spec because the overflow is not gonna be exactly what the designers intended. Then the next batch is gonna be even farther off (in the same direction) and so on until it approaches an equilibrium somewhere. So the operator has to step in at some point and make a correction. So obviously it takes some attention and expertise.

So the chemical system designers came up with an alternate money-saving system. They would engineer a chemical system that runs at a low replenishment rate, low enough that the overflow, the excess chemical waste, would be relatively insignificant. This would be the NR, the non-regenerated setup. Not quite as economical as regenerated systems, but a qualified QC guy is not needed. So, depending on the size of the lab, NR systems might be more cost effective. In a nutshell, this is why there are no regenerator kits for same.

Now, someone could conceivably make a regenerator package for NR bleach, but it would likely be nothing but problems for them. When you run a really low replenishment rate then things like the amount of carry-in and evaporation become much more significant. With the result that any standard regenerated mix is gonna fluctuate all over the place, and no one is gonna be happy.

Ps, you mentioned, several times I think, using acetic acid to adjust the bleach pH. That would be the wrong direction! A pH = 7 is "neutral; less than 7 is acidic; higher than 7 is alkaline (aka "basic"). A normally operated C-41 system has high-pH developer being carried into the bleach. Consequently bleach REPLENISHER has an extra-low pH in order to counteract the pH-raising effect of the developer carryover. So... if you DO NOT have developer carryover into the bleach, then the bleach pH will already be lower than desired. So adding acid is the wrong thing, it will lower pH even more.

Pps an older book I sometimes recommend to people is George Eaton's "Photographic Chemistry," circa 1960s. It's a great general primer for a technically oriented person - I suspect you'd have a good time with it. (Don't pay too much; Amazon seems to have a little price game going on; you ought be able to get it for under $15 or so)

Bill, the info I mentioned is from this post from PE. See post #8.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/reusing-c-41-bleach.80870/

PE suggested Acetic Acid suggested to lower the PH if developer carryover had brought the PH up. Ammonium Chloride was also suggested to replenish the consumed halides in the bleach. Yes, the developer is basic and the bleach is acidic. Developer carryover will cause PH to drift toward basic. That's why adding acid is needed to adjust the PH back down. I know this is just an idea. To get it done accurately is another matter that will be difficult even for experienced lab operators. I agree if the RA bleach with replenishing is already cheap enough there is no incentive for even thinking about regenerating it. Thanks again, Bill. Really appreciate your input on this thread.

mtjade2007 said:

Bill, the info I mentioned is from this post from PE. See post #8.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/reusing-c-41-bleach.80870/

PE suggested Acetic Acid suggested to lower the PH if developer carryover had brought the PH up. Ammonium Chloride was also suggested to replenish the consumed halides in the bleach. Yes, the developer is basic and the bleach is acidic. Developer carryover will cause PH to drift toward basic. That's why adding acid is needed to adjust the PH back down. I know this is just an idea. To get it done accurately is another matter that will be difficult even for experienced lab operators. I agree if the RA bleach with replenishing is already cheap enough there is no incentive for even thinking about regenerating it. Thanks again, Bill. Really appreciate your input on this thread.

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Mr Bill was referring to a scenario where there was no developer carry-over into the bleach. You don't want to make the pH of the bleach even lower than it already is.

mtjade2007 said:

Yes, the developer is basic and the bleach is acidic. Developer carryover will cause PH to drift toward basic. That's why adding acid is needed to adjust the PH back down.

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Yes, you are absolutely correct. Perhaps I mislead you.This is the way it will work in a conventional process, with film going directly from developer into bleach, using squeegees as the film leaves the developer. (To be clear, the "acid" is already in the bleach replenisher; ideally it is just enough to counteract the pH-raising effect of the carryover developer. )

But...here's what you said earlier, which has it backwards...

mtjade2007 said:

And the PH gets lowered by developer carrying over. ... The acidity can be adjusted by adding some acetic acid and checked with a PH meter.

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afriman said:

Mr Bill was referring to a scenario where there was no developer carry-over into the bleach. You don't want to make the pH of the bleach even lower than it already is.

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Yes, exactly right. I probably didn't make this clear enough.

FWIW my understanding is that most people running C41 in a reel/tank system do NOT go directly from developer to bleach. (If you cannot get a rapid, complete immersion of the film into the bleach you may get streaking on the film.)

Mr Bill said:

Yes, exactly right. I probably didn't make this clear enough.

FWIW my understanding is that most people running C41 in a reel/tank system do NOT go directly from developer to bleach. (If you cannot get a rapid, complete immersion of the film into the bleach you may get streaking on the film.)

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I don't. It's developer, stop bath, water fill, dump, fill, dump, bleach, wash, fix, wash, final wash. All my C-41 is a JOBO. I've used both RA NR and Bleach III in a replenished set up, but no bleach regeneration. The excess bleach goes with the fix and Safety Kleen takes it away when I get enough of it collected for a pickup.

Mr Bill said:

FWIW my understanding is that most people running C41 in a reel/tank system do NOT go directly from developer to bleach. (If you cannot get a rapid, complete immersion of the film into the bleach you may get streaking on the film.)

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I do it but using one-shot RA chemistry. I go directly from developer to bleach and from bleach to fixer following the sequence described in famous Kodak Z-131 manual for rotary processors. Developer --> Bleach --> Fixer --> Wash (6x30 seconds) --> Stabilizer.

All done in a Jobo CPP2 with no issues.

Same with me too. My processor is a JOBO ATL-2300, an automatic rotary processor. Chemical (or water) carryover happens naturally. Chemical components in the bleach are constantly consumed regardless there is chemical carryover or stop bath (by water or by acid). If the bleach is to be reused it has to be replenished or regenerated on top of the aeration for getting oxygen back into it. There is no easy answer to this question. I was interested in finding out what chemical components are consumed that need to be added back. I know the hard part is to figure out in terms of quantity that need to be added. PE already gave conceptual words about it long time ago. It seems nobody has successfully done the regeneration of RA bleach NR I can just replenish mine per Kodak's guideline using the RA bleach itself.

unwantedfocus said:

I found a comment from you in this THREAD regarding development times.

Overall the kit seems to exactly what I was looking for. I have a few questions regarding the kit, I see on Fotoimpex they offer 3 versions:
1000ml Kit for 39,00 EUR = 28 rolls = 1,39 EUR per roll
2500ml Kit for 49,00 EUR = 50 rolls = 0,98 EUR per roll
5000ml Kit for 69,00 EUR = 100 rolls = 0,69 EUR per roll

Sadly the 1000ml kit is not working out for me since my Tank holds 1250ml for 3x 120 rolls. I would not mind getting the 5000ml kit and divide into 2 batches but I'm not sure if that is a great idea any recommendations? If that option is not working out I would opt for the 2500ml Kit. I read the instructions and there is no specifications for longevity or how long I would be able to store it, is there any info how long this kit holds up?

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I buy since ever the Compard 5 liters sold by Hans O. Mahn ie. MACO or the Fuji X-Press, in 5 liters sold by MACO and FOTOIMPEX (depending availability, Compard is often sold out for long periods these last couple years).

I usually do 1 liters batches at a time but did also sometimes make bigger like in your case. It's ok but you should rebottle the C-part of the developer in a smaller container where the volume fills up to the cork, as you go, in order to slow down depletion, in case you don't use the whole kit fast enough, the "fast enough" is the point I don't remember well unfortunately (2, 3, 4 months???). Could use neutral gas spray like Tetenal one to remove remaining air before putting the cork also.

Compard is practical because they sell the components separately. For some reason all kits have less developer than bleacher and fixer and these keep quite long. I do an average 30 to 35 rolls of 120 on 1 liter developer, but in the 45 rolls with one liter bleacher or fixer.
I do oxygenate the bleacher before use, ie. pour into a big jar, stir strong for a minute with a long spoon, probably overdone but then it's oxygenated.

Also, if you do lot of C-41, Nordfoto sells the "Fachlabor" and "minilab" volumes of FUJI "Hunt" or "CN-16" (the FUJI name for C-41). A german Ebay account going under the name fotomeister or fotomeister something I think does sell also some of these CN-16 boxes. Not sure prices are better.

As for the actual manufacturer under the hood of the Compard (Digibase) brand, there was a time it was said to be Fuji Hunt repackaged. Maybe, but instructions for agitation intervals are different and I found fresh X-Press to be harsher in case I left it a few seconds over the 3'15", with the couple first rolls.

Thank you everybody for their detailed responses I really appreciate it. After really long consideration and research I think the most economical thing for me to do is to either stack up rolls and buy kit were belach and fix are separated or give it to a lab. I was hoping to somehow get the HC-110 effect it can be stored forever and doesn't go bad. I do not shoot enough 35mm to replenish actively, for me the cost factor also plays a major roll. For now I will stick with B&W development.

I read also that Fuji CN-16 should be used only for fuji films for the best results and Kodak Flexicolor for Kodak films. Can you tell the difference if a Fuji Pro 400h film is developed in Kodak Flexicolor instead of fuji CN-16? For B&W different developers give you different results is this the same case with c-41? And I'm talking about the outcome of development kits were fix and bleach separated. Because the outcome of using Blix is worse?

Thanks much appreciated

I did C41 processing once in a great while but the most economical is the lab. It's more expensive now but it's still the most economical. It does take a week now.

unwantedfocus said:

I read also that Fuji CN-16 should be used only for fuji films for the best results and Kodak Flexicolor for Kodak films.

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Quick & dirty answer: don't worry about this. Any combination will work just fine. C41 chemistry is pretty darn similar across brands.

unwantedfocus said:

I read also that Fuji CN-16 should be used only for fuji films for the best results and Kodak Flexicolor for Kodak film

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I always use FUJI Hunt chemicals. It will perfectly work with every color negative film in C41 as long as you are within the specs. Same goes for Kodak Flexicolor.

Mr Bill said:

most people running C41 in a reel/tank system do NOT go directly from developer to bleach

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I go straight into the bleach. That's just the way my ATL1500 works. But as PE once mentioned: There's nothing wrong doin' a stop after developing with acetic acid (not citric acid).

Here you go

https://www.fotoimpex.com/chemistry/fuji-c-41-film-x-press-kit-5l.html

60 films capacity, Kodak or any C-41 film no worries

unwantedfocus said:

I read also that Fuji CN-16 should be used only for fuji films for the best results and Kodak Flexicolor for Kodak films.

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As has been mentioned by koraks and Urs Gantner, C41 chemistry is standard no matter the manufacturer.
Anything else you hear is old wives' tales and/or marketing speak.
It's a bit like saying X brand of petrol/gas is better than Y brand.
Fuji once told me that if I used a non branded (identical) Fuji chemical set in my minilab that it would poor the results. So I asked them to show me an example of the poor results. They couldn't. So I showed them my control strip and they agreed it was good. Then I showed them my non Fuji chemicals (Champion) and they tried to backtrack. In other words, they just wanted me to buy from them by telling lies/marketing speak.