Long time Nikon guy just got his first Leica... whee!

SchwinnParamount · Feb 1, 2021

Hmmm. Well then. The sprocket isn't the issue after all. I guess it comes down to the film take up spool requiring 2 of the three prongs to bend film around them before they have enough purchase to pull the film. With all other take up spools (every other camera brand that I've ever owned) the leader is jammed into a small slot with a sprocket immediately at the entrance to the slot and attached to the spool. That creates a far superior connection between leader and spool. IN the case of the Leica, the sprocket is a separate mechanism adjacent to the take up spool. True, they both turn at the same time but for some reason, on the Leica, the sprocket isn't as active in pushing film forward as the spool pulls it at the same time. But I'm not a mechanical engineer so all I can do is speculate that the coupling between distinct sprocket and spool is weaker on the Leica than on every other camera. The bottom line is that loading film on every other camera is dead simple and never fails for me. On the Leica, I have to waste precious seconds insuring that it is loaded correctly.

It is possible that the camera back flap thing needs to be firmly engaged to push the film down onto the sprocket before the film is reliably taken up. It may be that I am not aggressive enough in pushing that thing into place before cranking

Don_ih · Feb 1, 2021

John M Austin said:
...
It is possible that the camera back flap thing needs to be firmly engaged to push the film down onto the sprocket before the film is reliably taken up.

In my M4-2, doing that helps. But I think the mechanism is, er, brain dead in terms of design. It's virtually impossible to load a III and not have it work. I generally waste 3 inches of film making sure the M4-2 is actually winding the film. So, I hardly ever use the camera.

logan2z · Feb 1, 2021

John M Austin said:
Hmmm. Well then. The sprocket isn't the issue after all. I guess it comes down to the film take up spool requiring 2 of the three prongs to bend film around them before they have enough purchase to pull the film. With all other take up spools (every other camera brand that I've ever owned) the leader is jammed into a small slot with a sprocket immediately at the entrance to the slot and attached to the spool. That creates a far superior connection between leader and spool. IN the case of the Leica, the sprocket is a separate mechanism adjacent to the take up spool. True, they both turn at the same time but for some reason, on the Leica, the sprocket isn't as active in pushing film forward as the spool pulls it at the same time. But I'm not a mechanical engineer so all I can do is speculate that the coupling between distinct sprocket and spool is weaker on the Leica than on every other camera. The bottom line is that loading film on every other camera is dead simple and never fails for me. On the Leica, I have to waste precious seconds insuring that it is loaded correctly.

It is possible that the camera back flap thing needs to be firmly engaged to push the film down onto the sprocket before the film is reliably taken up. It may be that I am not aggressive enough in pushing that thing into place before cranking

I have to admit, I'm a little puzzled by the difficulty you're having loading film into the M6. Is it possible there is something defective with the camera?

Here's a short video from Dan Tamarkin showing how easy it is.

Arthurwg · Feb 1, 2021

I'm shooting my Nikon F6 with a 24mm lens these days. My Leica sits unused, mostly because I have a 35mm lens on it and I am completely bored with that lens. Thinking of buying a Voigtlander 21mm F4 M mount for it. That should add new life and guess what-- it's so cheap at $400. But I'll still have to add a viewfinder.

BradS · Feb 1, 2021

logan2z said:
I have to admit, I'm a little puzzled by the difficulty you're having loading film into the M6. Is it possible there is something defective with the camera?

Here's a short video from Dan Tamarkin showing how easy it is.

OMG!!! his thumb dances across the shutter at 1:18....

logan2z · Feb 1, 2021

BradS said:
OMG!!! his thumb dances across the shutter at 1:18....

That may be because he's trying to load the film with one hand while he holds the camera at a good angle for the video camera.

Horatio · Feb 1, 2021

Maybe that two-inch drop did more than cosmetic damage...

markjwyatt · Feb 1, 2021

Arthurwg said:
I'm shooting my Nikon F6 with a 24mm lens these days. My Leica sits unused, mostly because I have a 35mm lens on it and I am completely bored with that lens. Thinking of buying a Voigtlander 21mm F4 M mount for it. That should add new life and guess what-- it's so cheap at $400. But I'll still have to add a viewfinder.

I got the SC Skopar 21mm f4 (Contax mount for my iia), and it came with a viewfinder. It is a really fun lens and takes nice shots, especially in places where you would otherwise feel cramped. You can zoom with your feet until you hit something else, or a bunch of undesirable stuff shows up in the foreground. With the 21mm, just walk up to "it", try and keep the camera level, and shoot.

SchwinnParamount · Feb 1, 2021

Horatio said:
Maybe that two-inch drop did more than cosmetic damage...

Don't say that!

SchwinnParamount · Feb 1, 2021

logan2z said:
I have to admit, I'm a little puzzled by the difficulty you're having loading film into the M6. Is it possible there is something defective with the camera?

Here's a short video from Dan Tamarkin showing how easy it is.

He doesn't exactly follow the diagram on the underside of the camera. I see that he pushes more leader into the tongs than are shown in the diag. He puts the leader completely through the tongs and then bends the protruding bit back toward the cassette. I haven't been doing that. He also visually inspects the film to be sure it is in the sprockets because I guess the film is not always going to stay put.
The big takeaway is that the diagram is incorrect and that I should be doing what he does, which is be a bit more generous about how much leader I pull through.

Horatio · Feb 1, 2021

John M Austin said:
Don't say that!

Just don't drop it on the rewind knob. I hear that's really bad for M4 and M6 models.

Regarding the film leader, I thought the leader had to be trimmed like the old Barnacks because the diagram looked the same on my M3. Leicas are in a world all to themselves in some ways.

logan2z · Feb 1, 2021

John M Austin said:
He doesn't exactly follow the diagram on the underside of the camera. I see that he pushes more leader into the tongs than are shown in the diag. He puts the leader completely through the tongs and then bends the protruding bit back toward the cassette. I haven't been doing that. He also visually inspects the film to be sure it is in the sprockets because I guess the film is not always going to stay put.
The big takeaway is that the diagram is incorrect and that I should be doing what he does, which is be a bit more generous about how much leader I pull through.

The diagram is not incorrect, that's exactly what I follow and I've never had an issue loading film in my M4/M-A. Clearly the camera isn't that finicky about how much leader you feed into the tulip as it works if you follow the diagram or push more leader in.

Re: the sprockets. I loaded dozens of rolls of film in my M-A before I even noticed the sprockets The instructions that come with the camera don't even mention them. Just follow the directions/diagram and you should be fine. Unless there is something amiss with the camera...

BradS · Feb 1, 2021

Horatio said:
Just don't drop it on the rewind knob. I hear that's really bad for M4 and M6 models.

Regarding the film leader, I thought the leader had to be trimmed like the old Barnacks because the diagram looked the same on my M3. Leicas are in a world all to themselves in some ways.

The standard leader is fine with all Leica M.
No trimming necessary.

SchwinnParamount · Feb 1, 2021

logan2z said:
The diagram is not incorrect, that's exactly what I follow and I've never had an issue loading film in my M4/M-A. Clearly the camera isn't that finicky about how much leader you feed into the tulip as it works if you follow the diagram or push more leader in.

Re: the sprockets. I loaded dozens of rolls of film in my M-A before I even noticed the sprockets The instructions that come with the camera don't even mention them. Just follow the directions/diagram and you should be fine. Unless there is something amiss with the camera...

If you watch how he loads his film, his leader goes entirely through the take up spool and out the other side. Then he wraps the exposed portion around the outside of the spool. It makes sense to do that. However, the diagram shows that you should put the leader into the spool but not out the other side. I was following the diagram and I think that's where my trouble is.

Huss · Feb 2, 2021

John M Austin said:
However, the diagram shows that you should put the leader into the spool but not out the other side. I was following the diagram and I think that's where my trouble is.

I've followed the diagram exactly in all my Ms that have this loading system. And have never had an issue.
Drop the film in, extend the film leader so it is in the tulip. Attach base plate. Then advance the film lever.

p.s. weird that Tamarkin points out the diagram, then ignores it. His way does insure that the film is loaded because you are watching it go round the take up spool. But he has also wasted at least 2 exposures doing that, when there is no need. He fired the camera four time before it being ready to take a pic!
Following Leica's instructions, you only fire the camera twice before it is ready.

Huss · Feb 3, 2021

At 3.40 is all you need to know. People make this too complicated.

logan2z · Feb 3, 2021

Old Gregg said:
Ouch. He wasted 2 perfectly good exposures in that video. Very wasteful.

Yeah, as @Huss pointed out, he could have saved a couple of shots. But at least he didn't get to 38 and discover the film had never advanced

film_man · Feb 3, 2021

Oh my fing God. Two years I've been trying to load my M4 and to make sure the film grabs BEFORE I close the back. Aaaaaaaaaaargh. RIght,I need to shoot that roll I have in so I can try loading it like that. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh

£$@!#%$£%# dammmmiiiiiit

BradS · Feb 3, 2021

Huss said:
At 3.40 is all you need to know. People make this too complicated.

Yup! RTFM, follow the directions and trust that the magic thingy works as designed.

and don't futz with the rewind knob!

Huss · Feb 3, 2021

logan2z said:
Yeah, as @Huss pointed out, he could have saved a couple of shots. But at least he didn't get to 38 and discover the film had never advanced

No-one needs to get to 38 to find it didn't load! Just like with pretty much any 35mm camera, look at the rewind knob. If the film is loaded correctly, it will turn when you advance the film.
With a 'modern' Leica after loading, the knob should turn by the second advance. The first advance takes up the slack in the film cassette.

I too used to sweat this because I listened to the internet, instead of actually reading what Leica says in the owner's manual!

I wonder how many of Tamarkin's customers have ripped the film out of the cassette, not realizing that they were done after having shot 34 exp, thinking that they had 36! Cuz the way he shows how to load the film definitely wasted a bunch of it.

logan2z · Feb 3, 2021

I think the film loading portion of this thread can be summed up simply as: RTFM.

Read the manual, follow the picture inside the camera, and you should have no loading issues.

Kodachromeguy · Feb 3, 2021

Arthurwg said:
Thinking of buying a Voigtlander 21mm F4 M mount for it. That should add new life and guess what-- it's so cheap at $400. But I'll still have to add a viewfinder.

The little Voigtlander 25mm ƒ/4 is great! I bought one a few months ago and have found it to be a lot of fun for the grungy stuff that I photograph. This is Arlington mansion in Natchez, Mississippi, via Panatomic-X film.

Huss · Feb 3, 2021

Old Gregg said:
Minor clarification: this is only true for 36exp rolls. When a 24exp is loaded it will be quite a while before you'll see it turning. That's why I simply tighten the roll prior to loading so it starts turning right away on the first advance.

Good point, as there is far more empty space for the film to loosen inside the cassette with a 24 exp roll.

film_man · Feb 3, 2021

Arthurwg said:
I'm shooting my Nikon F6 with a 24mm lens these days. My Leica sits unused, mostly because I have a 35mm lens on it and I am completely bored with that lens. Thinking of buying a Voigtlander 21mm F4 M mount for it. That should add new life and guess what-- it's so cheap at $400. But I'll still have to add a viewfinder.

I use a Zeiss 21/4.5 on mine.. I bought a finder (got a Contax G one) but after a couple of rolls I hardly ever use it. I think part of the fun is to just shoot without thinking too much about it.

Sirius Glass · Feb 3, 2021

Huss said:
I've followed the diagram exactly in all my Ms that have this loading system. And have never had an issue.
Drop the film in, extend the film leader so it is in the tulip. Attach base plate. Then advance the film lever.

p.s. weird that Tamarkin points out the diagram, then ignores it. His way does insure that the film is loaded because you are watching it go round the take up spool. But he has also wasted at least 2 exposures doing that, when there is no need. He fired the camera four time before it being ready to take a pic!
Following Leica's instructions, you only fire the camera twice before it is ready.

Old Gregg said:
Ouch. He wasted 2 perfectly good exposures in that video. Very wasteful.

Some people cannot count. Their loss.

logan2z said:
Yeah, as @Huss pointed out, he could have saved a couple of shots. But at least he didn't get to 38 and discover the film had never advanced

Huss said:
No-one needs to get to 38 to find it didn't load! Just like with pretty much any 35mm camera, look at the rewind knob. If the film is loaded correctly, it will turn when you advance the film.
With a 'modern' Leica after loading, the knob should turn by the second advance. The first advance takes up the slack in the film cassette.

I too used to sweat this because I listened to the internet, instead of actually reading what Leica says in the owner's manual!

I wonder how many of Tamarkin's customers have ripped the film out of the cassette, not realizing that they were done after having shot 34 exp, thinking that they had 36! Cuz the way he shows how to load the film definitely wasted a bunch of it.

I learned about check the rewind by myself when I was 14; I only lost one roll to figure it out. That saves a lot of grief.

Long time Nikon guy just got his first Leica... whee!

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