Lodima Fine Art Paper--Official reports and Member Responses

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Chazzy

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So how do I persuade the Art Institute of Chicago to have a big show of prints on Azo? Otherwise, I don't know how I'm ever going to see what the paper looks like. And I don't have any large negatives of my own to print. Is the trouble of making enlarged negatives worth it in order to use a paper like this?
 

Photo Engineer

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The enlarging and duplication process degrades the duplicate negative. No, it is probably not worth it unless you make a digital negative.

PE
 
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So how do I persuade the Art Institute of Chicago to have a big show of prints on Azo? Otherwise, I don't know how I'm ever going to see what the paper looks like. And I don't have any large negatives of my own to print. Is the trouble of making enlarged negatives worth it in order to use a paper like this?

Charles, you could contact The Museum of Contemporary Photography in Chicago (312-663-5554) and ask them to show you Michael Smith's prints they have in their collection. Does the Art Institute (312-857-7639) have any of Michael and Paula's photos in their collection? Might be worth a phone call, if they do they'll be happy to show them to you.

Richard Wasserman
 

michael9793

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I would venture to say that you have never seen Azo contact prints from Michael Smith or Paula Chamlee in person because if you did you would understand why they work exclusively with a sliver chloride contact paper and Amidol. They are visually stunning with a capital "S".

Even Adams in one of his books says that no matter the size of the negative there is a bit of visual "edge" that is sacrificed when one projection prints relative to contact printing. Basic physics where you get one thing and give up another.

After meeting Michael and Paula and seeing said prints mentioned above I have not touch my 5x7 and 10x10 Durst enlarger in a very very long time.

Just my $0.02.

Michael
I never liked Michael or Paula's work, I told him that to his face. This was at one of his workshops. But I followed up with I have never been so impressed with someones work as those two after seeing the prints in my hands. The prints I personally didn't like became some of my favorites. I'm not very opened minded, but a friend of mine wanted to go to his workshop so I said fine lets go. Now I am one of Michael and Paula's most true followers. If I had the money I would buy everyone of there prints. And I haven't seen one of thier Iceland prints yet.
When I print in Azo I never think it is that great till I mount and mate them and when up against my other prints then just have a glow.

Just my $0.02 worth
Michael Andersen
 

matt miller

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I was over missing Azo, but this thread has me grieving again. It was an amazing paper that made me feel like a better printer than I am.

The only thing I didn't like about azo was the color. I prefer a warmer print. I wonder how well the new paper will tone, or split tone. I can't wait to try it out.
 

Ray Rogers

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Love your AZO?

When I print in Azo I never think it is that great till I mount and mate them and when up against my other prints then just have a glow.

Michael Andersen

???

It would seem that a difference that can only be seen in direct comparison, side by side, is a rather small one, and not one that would make you want to write a letter home to mother about.

I am not trying to say you are wrong, just that I and perhaps others cannot (yet?) see what you are looking at!

Glow?

Sounds like love to me!
---
I think I have asked MAS too, but for anyone who feels the same, do you think you would like one of my pictures, contact printed on AZO (or Lodima or EZO for that matter) more than you would one you yourself printed on a well loved enlarging paper?
---
I DO THINK I understand the appeal of a contact print.

Haven't all of us been impressed at one time or another at the beauty of our 35mm contact prints?

Sometimes I have even wanted to have an exhibition of nothing but 35mm contacts!

But I feel some people have for so long said the magic was in a particular brand of paper, rather than the whole process or even in the specfic class of emulsion used, that it is going to be interesting to watch how this "love and affection" for AZO is weaned away from the past and transported into the possible future of another paper.


From scratch,

Ray
 
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Michael A. Smith

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First: anyone who wants to see our prints can contact me and Paula and can visit us here at our home/studio. For those near Chicago, as one fellow is: We will soon be photographing in Chicago for a month. Get in touch with us and you can come into the city to look at prints. We will have over 300 of our prints with us. A rainy day, or a very gray day would be best, as those days we will not be working.

Now to try to answer Ray Rogers:

He wrote: "It would seem that a difference that can only be seen in direct comparison, side by side, is a rather small one, and not one that would make you want to write a letter home to mother about.

I am not trying to say you are wrong, just that I and perhaps others cannot (yet?) see what you are looking at!

Glow?

Sounds like love to me!
"

Alfred Stieglitz once said:
"If you place the imperfect next to the perfect, people will see the difference between the one and the other. But if you offer the imperfect alone, people are only too apt to be satisfied by it." from Introduction to an American Seer by Dorothy Norman. (This is not the big Dorothy Norman book, but a smaller book published in 1960.)

If you were not a musician, or not even very musical, and weeks apart, you heard for the first time, music by, say, Telemann and Vivaldi, you might think it was pretty much the same music. But if you heard them one after the other, hopefully you would immediately know that the works were written by different composers.

The difference between a print on silver chloride paper and a print from the same negative on enlarging paper is a huge one. (Sometimes it can be a small difference, but usually there is a very great difference.) I was a good printer before I used Azo, but one year I reprinted all of my pre-Azo negatives onto Azo paper. The difference, for most of them. was astounding. In a few cases, one would have thought that different negatives were used. If long scale prints and endless glowing mid-tones are what someone is after, and if they have the opportunity to make contact prints, in my mind they have to be very uncaring not to make their prints on silver chloride paper.

I'll make this offer to Ray Rogers and to all of the other skeptics: Send me a negative to print on silver chloride paper along with the best print you could make of it on enlarging paper, and I will make a print on silver chloride paper and send it back to you. In our Vision and Technique workshops Paula and I ask people to bring their most difficult negatives and I print them. That is to demonstrate an approach to printing. This is something different. Send a negative that you could get a good print from fairly easily. I may not do all the dodging and burning you would do (but then again, depending on the print, I may). I will be printing it to show you the tonal quality of silver chloride paper. I will not archivally process the print, nor will I tone it unless for some reason the color seems "off" (which is highly unlikely). Include return postage. Hold off doing this until we have the new Lodima paper. Send a negative that prints on grade 2, as that is the only paper I will have for a while. if you send a negative with the wrong tonal scale I will not try to print it, as a grade 2 paper will not properly print a negative that needs either grade 1 or grade 3 or 4. Now, there is a little leeway on this, so your print does not have to be dead on, but I hope you understand what I mean here.

I am not a "technical" person, have never owned a densitometer, etc.. I go by what I see. I don't like anything technical about photography. Silver chloride paper not only has the best tones of any paper, but it is the easiest paper to print on--the least technical.

Just yesterday, a photographer whose work we have published in one of our Lodima Press Portfolio Books came here so I could print one of his negatives. He had never used a silver chloride paper. He was blown away by how easy everything was. He used to spend two or three days making a few prints from one negatives. I had it nailed in far less than an hour. Partly my skill, but mostly it is the paper and the Amidol.

So yes, the magic is in silver chloride paper. if it were not, Paula and I certainly would not have gone to all the trouble we have gone to, and would not have spent part of a couple years of our lives trying to get the new paper made.

Frederick Evans gave up photography when commercially made platinum paper was discontinued. I might give it up if there were no more silver chloride paper.

Michael A. Smith
 

Kirk Keyes

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Send a negative that prints on grade 2, as that is the only paper I will have for a while.

Michael - do mean we should sent prunts that print on grade 2 enlarging paper, or ones that will print on grade 2 azo? I was under the impression those two types of paper scales are not the same. Can you tell us what contrast scale you are expecting the new paper to be?
 
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Michael A. Smith

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Yes, send prints that seem to be "normal" negatives. Or slightly denser ones. it doesn't really matter.

Someone just emailed me recommending that I charge a modest fee for my time to do this. He suggested $25. That seems very reasonable, but I will have to think about it.
 

jeroldharter

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Yes, send prints that seem to be "normal" negatives. Or slightly denser ones. it doesn't really matter.

Someone just emailed me recommending that I charge a modest fee for my time to do this. He suggested $25. That seems very reasonable, but I will have to think about it.

I don't do contact prints. My largest format is 4x5 and I enlarge the negatives. But $25 is a great deal.

I think that some of the APUG members who are very experienced printers could make some money teaching in that way. For a fee, send in a negative and your best effort print. The APUG teacher prints the negative his/her own way with some instruction/explanation as to how/why and that would be very informative. For the money, guarantee that the process would be timely. Not exactly hands on teaching, but less expensive and it might be a fun challenge for the teacher. I don't know what the market would bear, but I think it would be fun. Perhaps having a section of APUG devoted to that with its own gallery of teacher/student prints side by side would be good for members who pay to get in.
 
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Michael A. Smith

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Okay, this last post has me thinking. I was going to do a quick print, just to show what the paper can do. But if I am going to make a really fine print, with explanation of what I did, etc., that will take a lot of time and I will have to charge accordingly. It is not that I have a lot of time to do this. But the teacher in me tells me that yes, it could be interesting.

The way this is heading, it needs a best would be verbally, on digital tape (if that is what I am calling a small digital tape recorder). There must be some way, in this electronic age, to transmit a file like that.

Michael A. Smith
 

David A. Goldfarb

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Yes, it should produce an audio file in some standard format (.WAV or .MP3 most likely), and you could e-mail it or copy it to CD and send it with the print.
 

wilsonneal

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If you have a Mac, you could record it straight into the computer with a cheap little mic and a program like garage band, I would think.
 

Ray Rogers

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Interesting Offer!

I'll make this offer to Ray Rogers...: Send me a negative to print on silver chloride paper along with the best print you could make of it on enlarging paper, and I will make a print on silver chloride paper and send it back to you.

Michael I commend you for making such a wonderful offer!
In general principal, I ACCEPT!
I may want to address some points that I have concerns with, but in general it is an amazing offer.

I would like to secure the initall "free" offer, however.

For the other skeptics, 25 is a real bargain... Don't forget of course,
for every photographer you successfully convince, your Lodima customer list will be growing! Could be a wonderful advertising strategy!

That said, I think we would understand it if you retracted your offer, as it could seriously strain you for time if it were allowed to stand as is... if more than a handful took you up on it.

I am in no hurry. I will think serously about your offer and create a negative specifically for this purpose. I will be impartial. If I agree with your assesment, I will say so publicly and then I will proceed to find out why, in such a way that (hopefully) even those technical types can understand.

It may take a lot of time and I may need the help of others, but if we are able to come to some consensus, I feel it would be worth it.

I will think it over for a couple of months and come back with any concerns I might have. We can proceed from there.

There is the problem of negative size... is 8x10 more or less understood?

Ray
 

jgjbowen

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I will think it over for a couple of months and come back with any concerns I might have.

Ray

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ :rolleyes:

A couple of MONTHS! A good friend of mine frequently states "APUGers are a bunch of folks that talk a lot, but don't actually DO anything." God, after a couple MONTHS of thinking, perhaps then we might actually make a negative...........and then develop the negative.......then make a print......then send it to Michael..... Total time could be a decade.

Come on Ray, get off your butt, look through your existing negatives, make the best contact print you are capable of, and send it and the negative to Michael. Should take no more than a few hours. Obviously, use the largest negative you have available.

What have YOU got to lose?
 

Mahler_one

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As I wait for the new Lodima paper to arrive, I have been following the discussion regarding Amidol with interest. I note that Formulary has several Amidol "kits" for sale, one of which is said to mimic the formula as developed by Michael and Paula ( indeed, I was told that Michael and Paula developed the kit for Formulary to sell). Michael and others: For those of us who are just getting started with Lodima and Amidol-and who are without a scale-, would the a-fore-mentioned Amidol kit from Formulary suffice? In terms of convenience ( if not from price ) the kit would be preferable. Since we are speaking of convenience and Formulary, to complete the "Azo-Amidol process" with products offered in a "kit" form, might you be able to indicate what we might purchase from Formulary at the same time in order to be ready to go when the paper is shipped?

Thanks.

Edwin
 
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Ray Rogers

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Sounds kind of flakey to me...

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ :rolleyes:

A couple of MONTHS! A good friend of mine frequently states "APUGers are a bunch of folks that talk a lot, but don't actually DO anything." God, after a couple MONTHS of thinking, perhaps then we might actually make a negative...........and then develop the negative.......then make a print......then send it to Michael..... Total time could be a decade.

Come on Ray, get off your butt, look through your existing negatives, make the best contact print you are capable of, and send it and the negative to Michael. Should take no more than a few hours. Obviously, use the largest negative you have available.

What have YOU got to lose?


Well OK - you've got me!
Even my wife agrees with you! :D

I knew I would run into trouble with that... actually I first wrote "weeks" but changed that to months after thinking about it for a while...

My inital reaction was just as you suggested, but this is the problem with that approach as I see it.

1. This is a rare opportunity
2. This question has gone unanswered long enough
3. If, as many here claim, there is something special going on, then I feel certain that that "specialness" can be quantified.

I am reasoning that the 'technicians' are overlooking something that the 'glowers' see but cannot adequately describe.

Right or wrong, to be able to settle this once and for all... is going to require some forethought.

How the heck do you measure this kind of "glow" ?

Besides, MAS did say to hold off a bit, and I don't want to seem impatient or pushy.

OK, if it becomes a now or never situation, I will do what has to be done!
Admittedly, 'a couple of months' does sound kind of flakey!

(I am open to suggestions, if anyone has any constructive ides, please PM or eM me.)
 

Kirk Keyes

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Ray, just do it. It's probably a once in a lifetime opportunity.
 

jgjbowen

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Ray,

According to Michael Smith's calendar he is probably pretty busy until December. Set yourself a deadline of December 1st.

If it were me, I would take the negative that caused me the greatest struggle to obtain a fine print from. I would send THAT print and negative to Michael. If you were in the darkroom with Michael, you would lilely witness his ability to get a print using less than 4 sheets of paper that was superior to yours. Azo is VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY easy to work with.

I've used nothing but Azo for my 5x7, 8x10 and 7x17 negatives ever since I obtained my 1st box from Michael. What you want to pay attention to is the tonal range of Azo/Lodima. There are some articles on the Unblinkingeye website that show the curves associated with Azo. The paper has in incredible long straight line (when developed in Michael Smith's Amidol formula). That means your print tones have nice smooth gradations and a very wide range of tones. If you use a film (like Tmax 400) that also has a very long straight line, you can get some incredible images (in terms of tonal range). Azo/Lodima is like printing on platinum in terms of the tonal range. Except Azo/Lodima is cheaper, easier and in my opinion, better. I often make "final" prints with Azo after only 2-3 work prints. Sometimes I may make as many as 10 work prints, but that is the rare exception and usually means I am trying to wrestle a fine print from a negative that I used to label as "unprintable" either due to way too much or way too little contrast in the negative.

I have some Azo prints by Ryan McIntosh that are just stunning.

Have fun with this Ray, but don't try and over analyze it. Either you will like Lodima, or you won't...case closed.
 

Ray Rogers

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Thanks...

Ray,

What you want to pay attention to is the tonal range of Azo/Lodima. Have fun with this Ray, but don't try and over analyze it. Either you will like Lodima, or you won't...case closed.

Kirk...
John...

Thanks for your suggestions.
They are very sound.
I do over analyze things...

That said, I welcome more suggestions, from any one, especially on how to maximize this opportunity to showcase the tonal range of silver chloride papers and to point out, if present, their advantage over Chlorobromide and Bromide enlarging papers.

Ray
 
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