Local Stores vs Internet Stores

[Uncle Bill]

I think the retail outlets are as good as the distributors that supply them and the staff that work there. I buy from both bricks and mortar and online. It comes down to, what I am looking for, who has it and at what price.

 

[Sino]

Twenty years ago, from what I've heard, B&W film, paper and chemicals were the norm, so there's no point comparing to that. Three years ago I could, as Ari mentioned, visit any store at Thessaloniki where I lived at the time, and buy any quantity of B&W materials just like that. I can't see any chance of that happening today. Last time I tried visiting a random store to buy film, I started a whole debate about whether I should buy their last rolls of XP2 or not. I was wondering if it's only Greece that has such problems, but after this thread's been up for a few days, it seems as things are pretty much the same everywhere...

Ari, your points are correct. Unfortunately.

When I first picked up photography, the guys that got me hooked used to hang out at the Uni's darkroom & a photo supplies shop nearby. You could even call the guy at any time of the day, and some times of the night, to ask for some materials. He would often skip work to come and teach at the uni's darkroom. I feel kind of sad knowing that there won't be chances for other people to follow that route. Internet is OK, but an order from Germany takes some 4 weeks and I never had the chance to talk to the guys that sell me the materials face-to-face.

-Sino.

 

[removed account4]

ari

you pretty much nailed it.

john

I just got off the phone with a merchant from the Greek Ilford represenative Damkalidis in Athens.
I asked her about HP5+ in 120 and the final price she gave me for a large quantity is 3.37 euros. She was shocked to learn that I can get it from Germany (Phobatec) for 2.29.
They also don't stock any "unpopular" items such as the new Ilford products (Warmtone developer, selenium, etc) and PanF+ in 120.
She told me that the market for BW in Greece, three large companies, is very specific about the products they ask for and she dares not make a large order that might not sell.

So, it comes down to:
- Items are overpriced
- Stock is very limited in quantity and variation
- All other requests are made with "special orders"
- Conservatively restricted to old major customers and not interested in new ones or expending their market
- One can get materials in an emergency but only if they don't ask for much

In the end, it doesn't make sense to buy from a store like Damkalidis.
If I am going to order, instead of buying from the present stock, I am still restricted to large orders and from another E.U. merchant.
For Damkalidis and Ilford then, the market remains as such in Greece as since I don't buy from locals, I am not part of the greek film market.
Considering then that such stores have cornered their niche in very specific customers, maybe a couple commercial and school customers, in the end it looks like a business plan of strict survival with a short future. After all, even if those customers don't go digital, they could well be like me and order cheaper from abroad. After all, they are not the customer who will walk in the store, buy a handful of film, a couple bottles of chemicals and a pack of paper. Yet, they are the market of the local store. What products they display on their shelves are those that they are selling. For slow bulk orders, one can order online and has no need of the local store.

So it seems that the future will lie with direct orders from the manufacturer or a low priced middleman and analog products will disappear from the local photo store.
That means that:
a) the film market will become invisible
b) it will not grow but steadily shrink
c) film will not be available for purchase when needed, such as when traveling to another locality
d) prices will rise even more
e) to be able to shoot film you will need to make large orders which will take time, will need a lot of money beforehand and have to be stored and kept well
f) amateurs and students will have a very hard time justifying the use of film
g) if you run out of materials while on a job, you are screwed. Very bad for professionals
h) film photographers will be even more isolated and estranged
i) manufacturers will also be distanced from their markets
j) the irony of not having a computer and an internet connection will make it impossible to be an analog photographer
k) hard time traveling with lots of film which will be at least twice X-Rayed

...do I forget anything?

 

[David H. Bebbington]

...did I forget anything?

Yes - as I explained earlier, the way b+w materials are sold, in particular the discount structure, means that large suppliers can SELL retail for less than small suppliers can BUY wholesale. With the best intentions in the world, if a small supplier tries to put a reasonable selection of b+w materials on his/her shelf, these will be priced at twice the prices avaialble on the Internet (although still not priced high enough for the dealer to make much of a profit). Inevitably, potential customers who do not know much about business will think they are being ripped off, they will not buy, and the materials will stay on the shelf until they are outdated, at which point they will be sold off cheaply or even thrown away. This will mean a large loss for the dealer concerned, who will resolve not to stock any more b+w materials in future.

It is at least 30 years since I was able to buy the b+w materials I wanted at local drugstores, probably 10 or 15 years since I was able to buy at local photo outlets. Today, it is not surprising that these outlets are no longer in existence - rather, it is a miracle that Ilford, for one, has risen from the ashes again. Buying via Internet or the phone is the only possibility, except that, if you really want to support a local dealer, you can organise yourself into a buying group with 10 or so other photographers and then ask your local dealer how prices would be if you placed a £500 order. Miraculously, prices would suddenly become "reasonable"!

It may be hard to understand, but this is the business model which b+w materials makers have adopted - to heavily favor large sellers, who collectively will guarantee to buy a whole production run before it is even made and thus place the manufacturer's business on some kind of secure foundation. This is why manufacturers are loath to sell direct to small customers, since this would anger their large customers. We live in a world of constant change!

 

[arigram]

Well, I don't know about you, but I don't know how long I will be able to survive using film over here.
Every order of materials I make is something I think more than a few times: is the money well spent?
Will I still be using film cameras tomorrow?
Having a good supply of materials or not can define what medium you choose...

 

[David H. Bebbington]

Well, I don't know about you, but I don't know how long I will be able to survive using film over here.
Every order of materials I make is something I think more than a few times: is the money well spent?
Will I still be using film cameras tomorrow?
Having a good supply of materials or not can define what medium you choose...

Speaking personally, I run a small business and am very unwilling to waste my time doing boring stuff, which for me includes shopping. I buy almost everything I need via e-bay or other Internet sellers, sometimes 20 or more orders (mostly for very small sums) every month.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I tried to place as many orders for photo materials with a local dealer until I realised this wasn't doing either me or him any good. Now my photo materials come either from Manchester or Jersey (450 km away in each case). I grew up with small shops for everything within walking distance, but that's history now! I still buy a lot of daily food at a small local store run by Sri Lankans, but otherwise the business model I described earlier applies - big dealers rule, small ones die.

I see no reason why analog photo materials should not continue to be available as they are at present for quite some time, so no cause for alarm - and the advice you used to get from your local dealer is now available from forums like APUG!

Regards,

David

 

[arigram]

I would be interested to know what would you do if you had to order from "overseas", waiting weeks for delivery, paying very high prices for shipping and putting up with the trouble of massive heavy packages.
Honestly, I would like Americans and Brits to be forced to order from mainland Europe and see how that affects their thinking and practices.

 

[removed account4]

ari

are there other filmies in your neck of the woods that you can
bulk order film and paper with?
i know david goldfarb has mentioned that he used
to buy film from fotoimpex from germany with a few others.
maybe you can start a mini cooperative so it is a bit easier,
and you can have supplies on hand.

john

 

[arigram]

ari

are there other filmies in your neck of the woods that you can
bulk order film and paper with?
i know david goldfarb has mentioned that he used
to buy film from fotoimpex from germany with a few others.
maybe you can start a mini cooperative so it is a bit easier,
and you can have supplies on hand.

john

Hmmm, I know of no one unfortunately...

 

[Sino]

Ari,

I would help if I could, but the quantities I order are quite small. Even the photographic clubs here do not order large amounts of paper and film. We still have to meet for a cup of coffee or a raki though.

-Sino.

 

[firecracker]

I would be interested to know what would you do if you had to order from "overseas", waiting weeks for delivery, paying very high prices for shipping and putting up with the trouble of massive heavy packages.
Honestly, I would like Americans and Brits to be forced to order from mainland Europe and see how that affects their thinking and practices.

Living in Japan I always feel the same as you do, and there is just less and less stuff I buy each year because of the less choice we have and the more price increase on products we use. The real problem is that as we all know the whole global market for film photography is just not as stable as we used to know. So after a certain point, it doesn't matter where you get your stuff from. I'm just tired of shopping in general and online-shopping for things that are hard and really getting harder to get. I need to get away from that or I'll go insane.

So, the worst comes worst, I will probably just forget about printing, buying printing materials for a while, but just spend my money and time on film and developing and travel and shoot. I've got some stock in paper that I don't need to use right away. And I can live with neg scans if I have to. That will still save my soul, I think.

 

[markbb]

I would be interested to know what would you do if you had to order from "overseas", waiting weeks for delivery, paying very high prices for shipping and putting up with the trouble of massive heavy packages.
Honestly, I would like Americans and Brits to be forced to order from mainland Europe and see how that affects their thinking and practices.

Unless film was only produced on the mythical Island of Atlantis, this is unlikely. Why don't you buy film from Greece's own film manufactures?

 

[arigram]

Unless film was only produced on the mythical Island of Atlantis, this is unlikely. Why don't you buy film from Greece's own film manufactures?

Huh?

 

[arigram]

Ari,

I would help if I could, but the quantities I order are quite small. Even the photographic clubs here do not order large amounts of paper and film.

Exactly my problem, because I thought about it.
But then, who is around here so devoted to film photography that makes it his career and spends all his earnings on more film, paper and chemicals?
All the photographers in Crete would still not buy half the stuff I do.
Often I feel I am fighting a losing battle, but I am more practical than ideological and I know I am sticking with film because of the properties it gives me as an artist. If I also did sculpture I would act similarly with the materials needed. I don't know how long I can survive though, especially if film disappears from Greece.

We still have to meet for a cup of coffee or a raki though.

Man, you know, the invitation still stands.
You should get your girlfriend and come over for a weekend or so.
Fun is guaranteed!

 

[arigram]

I just had a long conversation with the store owner I told you about.
She is very pessimistic about everything, not film, but the whole photographic business. She is a fan of film herself, not only for her use, but for others, but her only customers are some schools and universities that buy film in very small quantities. I mean, I buy a lot more! She has almost no profit for selling digital cameras and because they become obsolete so quickly or because of special offers she can't stock them or sell them easily. Even the market for albums (baptisms, weddings) has been very reduced.
The representatives of equipment in Athens also have very little in stock and she has trouble finding things for her customers who often have to wait months for something small.
I told her about getting film from abroad but she is very concerned about the bureaucracy and she doesn't think the trouble is worth it when she doesn't sell.
She told me she wished that the film companies would do more to promote, because they are completely invisible.

Ilford, Kodak, Fuji, are you listening?

 

[David H. Bebbington]

Ari, is there some problem with mail to Crete that we foreigners don't understand? I would normally have thought that you could, for example, order from the UK. 10 rolls of Ilford 35mm cost £24.90, fast airmail with tracking and insurance costs £10.32, as Crete is an EU country, no VAT or import duty is charged. Is there some hidden difficulty?

Regards,

David

 

[arigram]

Ari, is there some problem with mail to Crete that we foreigners don't understand? I would normally have thought that you could, for example, order from the UK. 10 rolls of Ilford 35mm cost £24.90, fast airmail with tracking and insurance costs £10.32, as Crete is an EU country, no VAT or import duty is charged. Is there some hidden difficulty?

Regards,

David

Like I've said, I can order from Germany. My last 1000 euro order of film cost me about 30 euros in shipping. I usually try to avoid ordering from the UK because of the "overseas" bullshit charges, but I have been a customer of Robert White and Kentmere for example.
In regards to a merchant buying and reselling products, I can't speak because I don't know the troubles involved but it seems its not that easy as buying retail for personal use.

 

[arigram]

I forgot to mention, that the lady who owns the store, is really hoping in a revival of film.
She believes that the digital craze is a passing trend.
*sigh*
I wish I could give her hope.
I am not too optimistic myself.

 

[haris]

Ari, I will explain you how I stopped to buy from local stores: I calculated next things:

Price of products at my current supplier
Price of transport
Custom and TAX expences
Bank expences when make payment
Then I added 10 percent to that for sallaries of emploees and for expences of bussines (renting, electricity, etc...)
Also I make note that usual time from ordering products till have them in my hands is 15 days.

Everything together was my reference amount of money. Let us call this amount of money as X.

Then I visited local stores. I discovered in all local stores they want about X+30 percent up to X+100 percent. And in all local stores time from ordering till having products in my hands is about 60 days. So, in my local stores they have prices almos double of my referent amount of money (X), and for much longer delivery time. I considered that as plain robbery and as local store owners are making me fool.

I tried to make some fair arrangement with them, but they refused. Especially some of them weren't happy as they considered my orders too small for them to work with me.

After all that experience, and as I was already found very good, willing to help seller over internet, I am happy with them and I am their loyal customer for several years now.

As I told local store owners: "If you don't want my money, there are people over the world who will be glad to take it. Your problem."

So, I respect your desire to help local store and your ethical dillema, my experience with local stores was so bad that I don't feel any regrets to go to internet shopping.

Regards

 

[haris]

Oh, for almost 5 years now, here are no stores selling b/w material (or colour except Kodak Gold and Fuji Superia films), so today I don't even have to think will I buy locally or not. Last year last local store selling EFKE stuff went down. I did buy there, but me alone couldn't help. They also had high markup prices, but basic EFKE prices here were low, so I didn't felt exploited by them and could accept those prices