Lithium camera battery sudden death and effect of extreme cold and DSLR's

[Robert Ley]

In May I picked up a Nikon D100 to possibly convert to full spectrum for IR photography and I got a couple of batteries for the camera, one generic and one Wasabi. I liked the camera and decided to get a D300 that uses the same batteries. I really didn't use the batteries that much and didn't give it much thought. As I'm trying to go more retro and realize that I don't need a gazillion megapixel camera I just got a really clean used D700 that uses the same batteries as the 100 and 300.

Over the weekend I photographed a band at a local venue and primarily shot B&W with my F801s but I brought along the D300 for some color shots. I cranked up the D300 and took a couple of shots and the camera shut down, no power to the camera at all. When I got home I tried a few things and could not get it going and assume it was shot. Fast forward to yesterday when I got my D700 via DHL from Japan which took 5 days. To say that it has been cold in Buffalo is an understatement (10 to -5 F) so when I got the package it had probably been in the back of the truck for many hours.

Anxious to see the camera I immediately opened it up. The vendor had sent the camera with a battery installed so I tuned it on and nothing, no power to the camera and I thought I had received a DOA camera. I charged the battery in the camera and let it warm up hoping the the cold had prevented the camera from starting. I had put the battery that had been in the dead D300 and it didn't work so I put my spare wasabi battery and it fired right up. I then but the battery from the D300 in and nothing, I then got out my D300 and put the wasabi battery in and it fired up.

It appears that my generic battery died prematurely and I certainly wasn't expecting this as I have never had a battery die like that.

After that long story, two questions for the members. Have you every had a Lithium camera battery die prematurely and what is your experience with cold and digital cameras.

 

[wiltw]

You might want to read this, particularly about charging lithium ion battery in extreme cold.

Using Lithium Batteries in Cold Weather | RELiON

Using Lithium Batteries in Cold Weather

www.relionbattery.com

Another article summarizes, "Most lithium batteries can function in a broader temperature range, often from about -20°C to 60°C (-4°F to 140°F) for discharging and 0°C to 45°C (32°F to 113°F) for charging. It’s important to emphasize that operating or charging lithium batteries outside their optimal temperature range can accelerate degradation and reduce their lifespan...Extreme temperatures, particularly below -20 °C (- 4°F) and above 60°C (140°F), pose risks of damaging lithium batteries. Exposure to such extreme temperatures can lead to irreversible capacity loss, increased internal resistance, and heightened safety risks, making it essential to charge and operate lithium batteries under moderate conditions."

 

[koraks]

Have you every had a Lithium camera battery die prematurely

Yeah sure. Heat is worse than cold. Also, 3rd party/generic Chinese LiIon batteries are sometimes just e-waste as they arrive brand new in the box.

 

[loccdor]

I was instructed to never charge a lithium battery when it's frozen. It can damage them permanently. I'm in your area and was just walking around with my cellphone today. I took it out of my pocket every so often for a picture. The phone was almost fully charged, it died after about 30 minutes. When I took it back inside, it started working after about 15 minutes, but only showed 10% charge left.

 

[Robert Ley]

Yeah sure. Heat is worse than cold. Also, 3rd party/generic Chinese LiIon batteries are sometimes just e-waste as they arrive brand new in the box.

I doubt that it was the cold, just an e-waste battery from china. I received a new Wasabi battery today and am charging it as I write. In the future I will stick with the Wasabi's as they appear to be fairly reliable from all member accounts.

 

[xkaes]

One problem with any digital camera is that they will be useless when they stop making the batteries. For most people that's not a problem because they will have moved on to another camera well before that happens. I can still sell my old Minolta's (I just got $100 for a Hi-Matic AF2) because they still work after 70 years, but will anyone be making batteries for my Sonys in 75 years? How about 25? My three year old computer is already considered "LEGACY"!!!

 

[Robert Ley]

One problem with any digital camera is that they will be useless when they stop making the batteries. For most people that's not a problem because they will have moved on to another camera well before that happens. I can still sell my old Minolta's (I just got $100 for a Hi-Matic AF2) because they still work after 70 years, but will anyone be making batteries for my Sonys in 75 years? How about 25? My three year old computer is already considered "LEGACY"!!!

Not really a problem for me, being 78 I can only hope that I'll have to deal with that battery issue

 

[mshchem]

I bought a battery grip for my D850, I can use same battery as my D6. But most important the battery grip allows the use of AA cells.

I never use these cameras so meh.

 

[Disappointed_Horse]

One problem with any digital camera is that they will be useless when they stop making the batteries. For most people that's not a problem because they will have moved on to another camera well before that happens. I can still sell my old Minolta's (I just got $100 for a Hi-Matic AF2) because they still work after 70 years, but will anyone be making batteries for my Sonys in 75 years? How about 25? My three year old computer is already considered "LEGACY"!!!

That's one of many reasons I like old all mechanical cameras like my Pentax SL and other meterless cameras like the plain prism Nikon F and F2 and early Leica Ms. No batteries, no problems!

 

[Chan Tran]

Yeah sure. Heat is worse than cold. Also, 3rd party/generic Chinese LiIon batteries are sometimes just e-waste as they arrive brand new in the box.

But almost if not all Li-Ion batteries are from China?

 

[koraks]

They're not all generic/3rd party and that does matter.
Also: no, they're not. Lots of manufacturing is still happening in Japan and South Korea, and of course for specific applications (e.g. automotive) and at a more limited scale in the West.
While China is the dominant party, this doesn't mean they have a near-100% market share. I think it's actually quite surprisingly far removed from that point.

 

[xkaes]

Not really a problem for me, being 78 I can only hope that I'll have to deal with that battery issue

Some of us will buy green bananas. Good plan for you -- let the grand kids deal with the battery problem.

 

[Chan Tran]

They're not all generic/3rd party and that does matter.
Also: no, they're not. Lots of manufacturing is still happening in Japan and South Korea, and of course for specific applications (e.g. automotive) and at a more limited scale in the West.
While China is the dominant party, this doesn't mean they have a near-100% market share. I think it's actually quite surprisingly far removed from that point.

In case of the OP all Nikon batteries are made in China. Made in China isn't the problem (as much as I don't want to use China product).

 

[Sirius Glass]

In case of the OP all Nikon batteries are made in China. Made in China isn't the problem (as much as I don't want to use China product).

So Nikon owners are a captive market.

 

[Chan Tran]

So Nikon owners are a captive market.

I don't know if you own Canon or Sony you can buy batteries that are not made in China or not. I think it's the same situation. Some batteries for the Z9 were made in Japan though.

 

[Taylor K Nankervis]

I don't have a digital camera, but I do have experience with the oft-fancied lithium power sources.

Lithium AA batteries have been avoided for use in my Canon EOS 1N power drive booster E1 because of the batteries' steep, sudden 'death dive' in any condition — not simply weather or temperature. The high speed, high torque drive means if the power drops off the film stops mid-wind, effectively jamming the mechanism and requiring testy intervention, to say nothing of the film being screwed the moment the cover is opened!

I think you need only be wary of lithium batteries made in Vietnam. As an emergent manufacturing sector, they seem to lagging a bit behind China in this technology. This is something that has been talked about both with digital camera batteries and (at a tangent) the lithium batteries in road bike computers originating from Vietnam (e.g. the Hammerhead Karoo 3, most notably, with an irritatingly shorter battery life compared to many other benchmark units on the market).

 

[Chan Tran]

I don't have a digital camera, but I do have experience with the oft-fancied lithium power sources.

Lithium AA batteries have been avoided for use in my Canon EOS 1N power drive booster E1 because of the batteries' steep, sudden 'death dive' in any condition — not simply weather or temperature. The high speed, high torque drive means if the power drops off the film stops mid-wind, effectively jamming the mechanism and requiring testy intervention, to say nothing of the film being screwed the moment the cover is opened!

I think you need only be wary of lithium batteries made in Vietnam. As an emergent manufacturing sector, they seem to lagging a bit behind China in this technology. This is something that has been talked about both with digital camera batteries and (at a tangent) the lithium batteries in road bike computers originating from Vietnam (e.g. the Hammerhead Karoo 3, most notably, with an irritatingly shorter battery life compared to many other benchmark units on the market).

Lithium Ion AA is another animal altogether. A lithium Ion battery voltage is 4.2V fully charged. it goes down to 3.7V most of the discharge cycle. You can discharge it down to 3V so there is a lot of warning. However the Li-Ion AA has a 3.7V battery and a regulator to bright the voltage down to 1.5V. The regulator would hold this 1.5V output until the battery voltage is down to 3V then it simply shuts off.

 

[xkaes]

Lithium AA batteries have been avoided for use in my Canon EOS 1N power drive booster E1 because of the batteries' steep, sudden 'death dive' in any condition — not simply weather or temperature. The high speed, high torque drive means if the power drops off the film stops mid-wind, effectively jamming the mechanism and requiring testy intervention, to say nothing of the film being screwed the moment the cover is opened!

I've got photo devices that specifically are marked NO LITHIUM BATTERIES, like the Minolta BP-200 battery pack. I've also got devices -- like cameras -- that will work with SOME lithium batteries, but not others. Then I've got older devices -- like flashes -- that I won't consider using lithium in because they were designed for alkaline. Lithiums have some nice features, for sure, but they can be a PITA, too!

 

[Taylor K Nankervis]

I've got photo devices that specifically are marked NO LITHIUM BATTERIES, like the Minolta BP-200 battery pack. I've also got devices -- like cameras -- that will work with SOME lithium batteries, but not others. Then I've got older devices -- like flashes -- that I won't consider using lithium in because they were designed for alkaline. Lithiums have some nice features, for sure, but they can be a PITA, too!

Well and good. Nothing has ever been published by Canon regarding the use of lithium batteries in its pro-level EOS bodies (some have 2CR5 batteries, a separate matter) and particularly, the power drive booster E1, of which there were several iterations across different EOS models over the years. The only advantage to lithium batteries as I knew them was the lighter weight. The disadvantages are numerous and negate actual or perceived advantage, one today being the high cost! Another is that battery status is not reliably reported by the camera's system (common with many cameras). I never saw any particular benefit in cold weather use, but then the coldest I have worked in with the 1N is minus 6°c — I could scarcely concentrate and remain dextrous in that chill but the camera was ready and able!

End of day for me, don't care about carrying the extra weight (of alkalines) when reliability is paramount.

 

[wiltw]

For important clarification purposes...

• There ARE Litium batteries that are NOT 'Litium ion', and they do NOT output 3.7V.
• The Lithium AA batteries are NOT 'rechargeable' and they output 1.5V
• Lithium AA batteries are very shelf-stable, with ability to be on the shelf yet hold charge for 20-25 years, making them very valuable for uses like emergency transmitters for aviation or marine usage.

These should not be confused with lithium ion cells in AA package which use an internal circuit to drop voltage to 1.5V and are rechargeable (and are not shelf stable for 25 years)

 

[koraks]

Vietnam. As an emergent manufacturing sector, they seem to lagging a bit behind China in this technology

Factories were pumping out computer hard drives in Vietnam when we in the West associated China only with noodles.
You can't generalize on the basis of a couple of examples of bad products, for two major reasons:
1: There are countless more examples that would shift the balance towards China being the more problematic country of origin
2: As said, apparently you're unaware that the high-tech industry in Vietnam has been under development for several decades and that the country is home to manufacturing centers for exceedingly high-tech, complex products - that you and I use every day.
Due to the difference in size and also a couple of other matters firmly beyond scope of this forum, China is evidently much more in the spotlight than Vietnam.

The "lagging behind" statement is really ridiculous if you look at the actual development path of these countries.

PS: many Samsung brand batteries are manufactured in....Vietnam. Samsung is not associated with poor quality control, as you are likely aware.

 

[xkaes]

Just because Company X is headquartered in Country Y does not mean that all of the parts for all of its products are manufactured in Country Y -- or even that the product is assembled in Country Y.

There are lots of products that actually travel to different countries as different parts -- made in still other countries -- are added along the way. That's just one of the reasons why adding tariffs to a product can be really impossible. Parts for one product can come from all over the globe.