Lith Paper from B&H

[Guillaume Zuili]

Toffle, you can still go on DPUG to just have a look. Even if you don't do any hybrids.
There are a lot of processes I don't use but I still read on them.

No religious war, we all love real printing and wet hands.

G.

 

[Toffle]

You are right Toffle sorry about that. I was having a really bad/bitter art day and this was the first thread I clicked on. The digital/museum connection got me going for some reason.

Apologies to Bob and everyone.

Big hugs!

 

[Bob Carnie]

Apology accepted
I will finish off on this thread with any more of the student pictures and then give the cross thread method Matt and Dinesh seem to be suggesting.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I'm all in favor of having links to DPUG as a way to continue the hybrid/digital discussion, rather than having it on APUG. Unlike other forums, we haven't taken any strong position against linking even to forums outside APUG like the LF Forum or specific camera forums or RFF or photo.net when they have discussions that would be particularly interesting to APUG members, and DPUG is a companion forum, so all the better.

 

[winger]

Bob Carnie said - The majority of the time when I go to DPUG and click on New Posts the message is no new posts at this time. This is frustrating and at this time useless.

I've sorta wondered if the new posts over there doesn't work as well as here? Or if it gets refreshed by being here or something? 'cause I've gone awhile between visits over there and gotten only a few posts on the list when the spot on the upper right says hundreds.

 

[Sean]

The majority of the time when I go to DPUG and click on New Posts the message is no new posts at this time. This is frustrating and at this time useless.

Sorry for opening this debate up Sean , you know my feelings about this site, it feels like home, there are more darkroom users here than on any other site, I feel comfortable and am really open to help, but I have to say that hybrid is the way of the future for all darkroom users, we need to get over this fact, I shoot and process as much film as most people on this site so I am comfortable with analoque, but printmaking is being driven to a hybrid approach, all the new papers and existing papers are being modified to accept laser exposure, making negs to lay on paper is historically correct and we are getting caught up with the simple fact that an computer assists us in doing our work these days.
The simple fact is this- currently most of the best printers in the world that are hanging art in museums are using digital devices to assist them in their work, most of their end output is sanctioned by APUG , and historically the materials we use.
I would like to see an area here for discussing all ways of making a fine print. otherwise I am going to go home and have a hissy fit.



I hope to post more students work as it comes in.

I don't really agree on the "hybrid is the future" statement. It's no more the future than saying Wacom digital tablets and Corel paint software are the future of painting. Should painters "get over" that fact too? That they should stop being so stubborn, chuck out their brushes and paints and allow computers to assist them, then digitally output their work to canvas? We've all seen the recent digital canvas print fad. I'm sure all galleries will soon hang that work too, and all the finest of fine artists will scoff at anyone not going that route. Maybe the future of sculpture is 3D printing? Why would anyone waste days or weeks sculpting something when they can design it via a cad program and have a 3D printer perfectly output it within 30 minutes. Maybe this is the future for some but it's not quite my future, and I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one here who feels the same. I don't have a problem with what anyone prefers to use, but the tone lately seems to be one of resentment towards those who refuse to embrace digital or hybrid. That tone doesn't help matters. This is a no win situation, I figured that out long ago. People will be angry APUG doesn't go hybrid or digital, people would be angry if it does. That is why I washed my hands of this drama and drew the line keeping the scope of APUG what it is. DPUG is the best solution I could come up with and it's traffic is starting to trend up. DPUG will be busy in the not too distant future, we haven't even scratched the surface there yet. APUG continues to grow which I feel shows we should not mess about with such a special entity. I think the narrow scope here is a good thing, and why we have been so successful as the last remaining oasis in a digital world.

 

[clay]

I just stumbled on to this thread, and perhaps a little late am going to throw in my two cents worth of opinion about this subject:

I think APUG has a very clearly defined scope of existence. Light+film+developer. Pretty simple really.

That said, I totally agree with, and am on board with Bob's perspective on the value of the hybrid workflows. I teach alt-process workshops during the year, and digital negatives have opened wet print processes to a whole group of people who would otherwise never try them. The excitement that you see in student's eyes when they make their first platinum print or their first polymer gravure is contagious. Back in the dark ages, teaching a platinum printing workshop meant that you pretty much limited the potential audience to large format shooters, and chances were, their negatives weren't really suitable for platinum anyway (not enough density range). Now all you have to do is tell them to bring their files. In a couple of hours, they are making decent prints.

But it is still a hybrid workflow. And we have a great place for that: DPUG. My suggestion is to put a prominent 'goto' button on the APUG menu that links to DPUG. There are all sorts of cool things being discussed there. But if you aren't interested, you just don't go. If you are curious, it is an easy jump to this corner of the photo world.

 

[John R.]

Just taking a glance at this thread, I'd say at the beginning it was about identifying papers that lith well, and that is irrespective of the provenance of the neg or the plans for Bob's workshop.

On the other hand, if it is going to be about making digital negs for lith, it's better discussed on DPUG. That's exactly what DPUG is for--hybrid work--and having this discussion on APUG not only takes away from APUG's mission of providing a digital-free zone for the many members who come here seeking precisely that (even if they also do digital and hybrid work), but it prevents the growth of DPUG, which we would like to encourage.

I couldn't agree more, stated exactly the way it should be. This is a analog site and I think it needs to be respected for that simple fact. APUG is APUG, DPUG is DPUG. Keep them separate for the health of both.

Good moderating David, keeping things on track and in perspective. Well done.

 

[Toffle]

Good moderating David, keeping things on track and in perspective. Well done.

Kudos to all posters, the mods and Sean. This is too important a discussion to get sidetracked into silliness. The greater challenge may be keeping things focused after this discussion has run its course and the next push towards amending APUG's mandate begins.

In its way, APUG's success is partly to blame for its troubles. APUG is a mature forum that is both a reliable and effective resource for analog photographers. Questions regarding hybrid techniques are directed to DPUG, but that forum has not yet had the time to prove itself to enough users to make it a preferred resource. Similarly, those who have relied on APUG for years do not have the time to wait for DPUG to outlive its growing pains. Nor do they necessarily wish to exit APUG to ask a related question on its sister site.

I am inclined to agree that APUG is not the place for hybrid threads. Sean has stated time and time again what his vision for this site is and how difficult it is to manage when its mandate is tweaked even a little. APUG simply cannot be all things to all people, especially when what is being asked is a re-definition of what APUG is and will be. I think more and more that DPUG needs to present itself as the place for these discussions. Perhaps more effective cross-talk between the two forums is the answer, as has been suggested. In that way those with hybrid interests and those without can share without feeling threatened.

This has been a positive and fruitful discussion. I look forward with interest to see where it will lead and who we will be when we get there.

 

[Sean]

It would be interesting to see if I could find a large corporate willing to fund a "bridge" between the forums. What I would like is:

- 1 unified user database
- unified new posts & searches between sites
- ability to move posts between sites
- unified user profiles between sites
- user control panel settings to enable members to "activate" the dpug or apug side depending on their preferences.

This would basically keep both sites seperate if that is what you wanted, if you wanted more you could activate the bridge in your preferences and both sites would then appear (to you) as one site.

I'm not 100% sure what a bridge like this would cost to code up. Possibly in the vicinity of 15-20k. What would be in it for the corporate sponsor? The bridge would be well know and advertised as "Corporate Sponsor's Bridge", and some other exposure we could provide.

Open to suggestions of what company might be good to contact over such a venture...

 

[sarahfoto]

I agree with David and we did try hybrid on APUG once, and behind the scenes it added a lot of work, stress and frustration more than people know. Do not underestimate how invasive digital topics can be on a forum like this. "We want a hybrid forum", ok "now we want subforums", "we want to be able to talk hybrid outside of the subforums, the subforums are just kicking us to the curb", "why can't we submit hybrid images in the galleries?", "we need hybrid gallery topics" "it's time for 100% digital gallery submissions what's the big deal?" "it's ridiculous that we can discuss hybrid on APUG but not straight digital, we need digital forums on APUG now", and on and on. It's never ending. We drew a line in the sand a while back to avoid this, APUG does not need to be all things to all people. This is a niche site with a narrow scope, and if that were a problem our numbers would be in long steady decline, actually they are always increasing.

Must admit that I didn't read all the pages but the above comment is what struck me as what it boils down to. I turn to Apug to see non-digital prints and always get great advice if I have any questions about darkroom, lithpapers and such. If I would have any interest in Dgitial or hybrid I would turn somewhere else, not try and change the site to fit my personal needs. I appreciate not having to sieve through pixels, photoshop, inkjet etc but simply logging on there is always something that catches my attention.Thank you for making Apug such a fantastic "narrow" site of information!
Sarah

 

[Bob Carnie]

I like where you are thinking with the bridge Sean ,
as someone mentioned it would be nice not to have to wait for DPUG to grow to a point that it is interesting.

My vote is to go after Adobe,

For those of us using hybrid PS is a requirement. I ran APPS (Alternative Photographic Process Symposium) this year and after the event the organizing group concluded that a major sponsor was needed.
We kept coming back to Adobe as the logical main sponsor as their software is crucial to most of us. Minor sponsors could be Epson, Pictorico, HP , Kodak, Fuji, Harmon( all these vendors supply alternative materials)- then not to forget, Bainbridge, Drytac, and the Paper suppliers , then not to forget Bostick and Sullivan, Formulary and other suppliers of chemicals for alt printing.
Then we also should not forget the Camera Dealers .
If I started producing film for others as a business venture then my company would start contributing again as we have in the past.

I do know that some of the above are already supporting us at APUG and DPUG and I appreciate their help.

Another point, I would make the new BRIDGE group subscriber only so each person pays as they go. I really could get along with a smaller dedicated group , How many of us here remember subscribing to Zone V1 back in the 70's and 80's ???? back then the info was not free, why should it be today. Fred Picker produced newsletters and I have got every one of them and they are in three small binders off my computer and I treasure them.

It would be interesting to see if I could find a large corporate willing to fund a "bridge" between the forums. What I would like is:

- 1 unified user database
- unified new posts & searches between sites
- ability to move posts between sites
- unified user profiles between sites
- user control panel settings to enable members to "activate" the dpug or apug side depending on their preferences.

This would basically keep both sites seperate if that is what you wanted, if you wanted more you could activate the bridge in your preferences and both sites would then appear (to you) as one site.

I'm not 100% sure what a bridge like this would cost to code up. Possibly in the vicinity of 15-20k. What would be in it for the corporate sponsor? The bridge would be well know and advertised as "Corporate Sponsor's Bridge", and some other exposure we could provide.

Open to suggestions of what company might be good to contact over such a venture...

 

[jglass]

What about Ilford or Adox as a co-sponsor? Those are the guys I want to keep alive!

 

[Bob Carnie]

One question to the Moderators , Council and Sean.

Is it possible to go back in time on APUG and designate old threads that have good info regarding alt hybrid printing and make them viewable on both sites?... For example Chris,,, holmburgers has started some very long threads here that are wonderful resources on Analogue Process, that include lots of very interesting technicians with valuable info re using hybrid workflow to make prints.
I seem to remember that there are many, many threads that could benefit this treatment.
Chris is very good at scouring out these details, I vote him to be the person that does this.

To be hopping back and forth between the Sites hoping that I don't miss details on subjects that I am interested ,is very frustrating and not being able to add anything to the discussion without putting in obvious digital methods or techniques on APUG is just really silly/frustrating, IMO only.

I understand the narrow-band thinking about keeping APUG pure, I am in a very niche business, that processes film, makes silver prints, and frames them, not a recipe for business success these days so I get it.
But I am just saying that being able to see the front and the back of a given process is wonderful, and I would like to be able to participate here on APUG but lately I seem to be only adding info that pisses some off.
A bridge system for those who want to see both sites sounds like a very good idea. I only click on two forums here, darkroom film and darkroom printing, all others are turned off , and have been this way for about 3 years now , so I know it works, just like the ignore user button.

 

[eddie]

Just an idea, which may help drive traffic to DPUG:
The "Site News & More.." box, on APUG's home page, doesn't seem to be very active. It doesn't seem to change too often. What if it was changed to "Currently on DPUG" (or something like it), which would show the most recent DPUG forum posts? Scrollable, as it is now, it could show the newest posts in real time. If a post is of interest to anyone, here, they could get directly to the DPUG post.
Sean- Please take this in the spirit in which it is offered. I'm just tossing an idea out there. It may spur another, better, solution...

 

[Bob Carnie]

As promised Student Three- John Lawson - John has taken a few courses with me and likes the darkroom so I believe he will keep on trucking with lith. I should mention
that Gallery 44 in Toronto has a great setup and is dedicated to preserving the Darkroom.

 

[Bob Carnie]

As Promised Student Four Marvin Antonio - Marvin is on the Board of Directors of Gallery 44 and as such gets to take every one of my courses, He has a deep interest
in darkroom work.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Wow, that last print is amazing, Bob! I love it.

 

[Bob Carnie]

We were getting great Blacks and highlight tone with these negs and paper.

That was Marvin's self portrait.

Wow, that last print is amazing, Bob! I love it.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

We were getting great Blacks and highlight tone with these negs and paper.

That was Marvin's self portrait.

Don't color me surprised... What I liked about that print was the extreme contrast. Huge visual impact.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Setting the aim points is what makes that happen L 96 for the highlights L 2 for the shadows.

Don't color me surprised... What I liked about that print was the extreme contrast. Huge visual impact.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Or in Zone System Zone 9.6 for the highlights Zone 0.3 for the shadows

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I have no idea what that means, Bob, but it sure worked!

 

[Bob Carnie]

So this is an interesting one, beside the fact that I got Brad Pitt to pose with Paulette, who by the way is Alt Girl for those who know her with that handle.
This is our first cyanotype that together we produced that sold to our client , Image by Jen Arron.
She used a digital point and shoot and we converted the image to BW and made a Lambda silver neg, and contact printed to Fabrinio using the cyanotype process.

We are very happy to be able to do this as Jen is interested in any and all types of processes that we can offer her for her small photography business. We are happy as now we are taking
on commission's and our clients are funding our work which allows us to buy more material.
To date with the course at Gallery 44 and a couple of willing clients we are ordering over $2k of alt materials funded by teaching and now prints. This will only snow ball for us and make a few vendors happier. I believe we will see other labs like us joining the bandwagon with their client bases , which will in turn make it better for the manufacturers to visualize the potential market.
This takes time and I do believe the wave of future printing , or at least one wave.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Brad Pitt changed a bit since I last saw him.
Good looking print!