Lith Paper from B&H
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I have taken the liberty to ping moderators and the admin, seeking their input in this thread, taking part in the discussion.
Hope you didn't mind.
Hope you didn't mind.
David A. Goldfarb
Moderator
Just taking a glance at this thread, I'd say at the beginning it was about identifying papers that lith well, and that is irrespective of the provenance of the neg or the plans for Bob's workshop.
On the other hand, if it is going to be about making digital negs for lith, it's better discussed on DPUG. That's exactly what DPUG is for--hybrid work--and having this discussion on APUG not only takes away from APUG's mission of providing a digital-free zone for the many members who come here seeking precisely that (even if they also do digital and hybrid work), but it prevents the growth of DPUG, which we would like to encourage.
On the other hand, if it is going to be about making digital negs for lith, it's better discussed on DPUG. That's exactly what DPUG is for--hybrid work--and having this discussion on APUG not only takes away from APUG's mission of providing a digital-free zone for the many members who come here seeking precisely that (even if they also do digital and hybrid work), but it prevents the growth of DPUG, which we would like to encourage.
Fotospeed LD20
Bob,
Where do you get your LD20? I have tried to find a distributor in Canada but no luck. And shipping from US across the border is next to impossible as it is designated ORMD.
It seems that only the Rollei chems are available, and only sporadically from Canadian distributors.
I was on a Tim Rudman course at PhotoFormulary in Sept and really liked using the LD20.
Martin
Bob,
Where do you get your LD20? I have tried to find a distributor in Canada but no luck. And shipping from US across the border is next to impossible as it is designated ORMD.
It seems that only the Rollei chems are available, and only sporadically from Canadian distributors.
I was on a Tim Rudman course at PhotoFormulary in Sept and really liked using the LD20.
Martin
Sean
Admin
I agree with David and we did try hybrid on APUG once, and behind the scenes it added a lot of work, stress and frustration more than people know. Do not underestimate how invasive digital topics can be on a forum like this. "We want a hybrid forum", ok "now we want subforums", "we want to be able to talk hybrid outside of the subforums, the subforums are just kicking us to the curb", "why can't we submit hybrid images in the galleries?", "we need hybrid gallery topics" "it's time for 100% digital gallery submissions what's the big deal?" "it's ridiculous that we can discuss hybrid on APUG but not straight digital, we need digital forums on APUG now", and on and on. It's never ending. We drew a line in the sand a while back to avoid this, APUG does not need to be all things to all people. This is a niche site with a narrow scope, and if that were a problem our numbers would be in long steady decline, actually they are always increasing.
No concern that if the bread and butter of the existence of silver gelatin photography vanishes there will be no APUG?
In the event that film and paper disappears, would you just let APUG die? Or become a sad place where 500 people exist and remember the 'good old days' when you could buy film and paper to make pictures?
It sounds as though it's more of a convenience thing than anything. I understand the 'line in the sand' thing, but the fact is that DPUG is dead. There is no life in that site, with hardly anybody posting. I've tried some discussions over there, but they die out before it gets good.
What's the alternative to DPUG? Just looking for a bit of discussion here, not throwing mud. You have the potential of creating something even greater than APUG, and at the same time make a real difference in the interest of silver gelatin interest. Personally I'm not real worried about film, but I'm really worried about paper. I share Bob's concerns.
In the event that film and paper disappears, would you just let APUG die? Or become a sad place where 500 people exist and remember the 'good old days' when you could buy film and paper to make pictures?
It sounds as though it's more of a convenience thing than anything. I understand the 'line in the sand' thing, but the fact is that DPUG is dead. There is no life in that site, with hardly anybody posting. I've tried some discussions over there, but they die out before it gets good.
What's the alternative to DPUG? Just looking for a bit of discussion here, not throwing mud. You have the potential of creating something even greater than APUG, and at the same time make a real difference in the interest of silver gelatin interest. Personally I'm not real worried about film, but I'm really worried about paper. I share Bob's concerns.
David A. Goldfarb
Moderator
If more people try DPUG there will be more activity there. Saying that no one should go there because no one goes there is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
DPUG is a digital and hybrid forum for photographers with an APUG sensibility, and it's no secret that a lot of us do digital and hybrid work, even if we've agreed to play by the rules and not discuss that part of our photographic lives on APUG. At the same time, I think some of us don't feel at home discussing our digital work on the popular digital photo forums. So DPUG is for us, and we should take advantage of it.
Personally, I've always liked the "all business" aspect of DPUG. People post when they have a serious photographic question, and they respond when they know something, and quite a few people are there to lurk and soak up some information before they get their feet wet. There's not much chit-chat or socializing, and some users are attracted by that density of information and expertise. Of course as DPUG grows that will change, but people who know how it is now, without the bustle of APUG, will remember this time as DPUG's golden age. I've participated in many internet forums over the past 20 years (now I really feel old), and the life cycle is familiar.
One important point, though, is that I don't think we are doing enough to promote DPUG here on APUG and to encourage APUG members to check it out. Maybe what we could do is ask one of the DPUG moderators to post an occasional digest in the "System Announcements" forum, so people know what really is going on over there and have a little more incentive to take a look, without bringing hybrid discussions to APUG where we have many members who really want a there to be just one all-analogue forum on the internet.
DPUG is a digital and hybrid forum for photographers with an APUG sensibility, and it's no secret that a lot of us do digital and hybrid work, even if we've agreed to play by the rules and not discuss that part of our photographic lives on APUG. At the same time, I think some of us don't feel at home discussing our digital work on the popular digital photo forums. So DPUG is for us, and we should take advantage of it.
Personally, I've always liked the "all business" aspect of DPUG. People post when they have a serious photographic question, and they respond when they know something, and quite a few people are there to lurk and soak up some information before they get their feet wet. There's not much chit-chat or socializing, and some users are attracted by that density of information and expertise. Of course as DPUG grows that will change, but people who know how it is now, without the bustle of APUG, will remember this time as DPUG's golden age. I've participated in many internet forums over the past 20 years (now I really feel old), and the life cycle is familiar.
One important point, though, is that I don't think we are doing enough to promote DPUG here on APUG and to encourage APUG members to check it out. Maybe what we could do is ask one of the DPUG moderators to post an occasional digest in the "System Announcements" forum, so people know what really is going on over there and have a little more incentive to take a look, without bringing hybrid discussions to APUG where we have many members who really want a there to be just one all-analogue forum on the internet.
Appreciate your response, David.
I am not as convinced as you are of the success of DPUG, and even if it works out to turn it into a hybrid powerhouse, it is likely to take a long time, decimating the effect a similar attempt could have here on APUG.
My fear is that silver based photography gets reduced too much, to the point that only a few either rich or sacrificial individuals can practice, leaving APUG and analog lovers in the dust.
I am not as convinced as you are of the success of DPUG, and even if it works out to turn it into a hybrid powerhouse, it is likely to take a long time, decimating the effect a similar attempt could have here on APUG.
My fear is that silver based photography gets reduced too much, to the point that only a few either rich or sacrificial individuals can practice, leaving APUG and analog lovers in the dust.
Sean
Admin
DPUG is somewhat in beta still and quite neglected. There has been zero investment there for spreading any word and we hope to change that as soon as humanly possible. One reason for migrating APUG/DPUG to new robust infrastructure was to prepare for the coming DPUG push. The only thing that has been holding that back is time and finances. I recently sold my home and am moving to an area with a far lower cost of living, so am very excited to get back to having disposable income for things like getting DPUG rolling.
Thomas, I do have some questions for you though and I hope it's not taken the wrong way. What hybrid process do you use? If the final result of that hybrid process can be replicated 100% digitally... I am talking a side by side comparison is absolutely 100% indistinguishable. Would you still use the hybrid process or go with the 100% digital work flow? Would you make a digital negative and hand made carbon print, or would you make a digital carbon print using a new type of home based $200 10,000dpi 3D printer (the 3D printer enabling the "digital" carbon print to have the subtle telltale raised surface features of a traditional carbon print)? If both were 100% indistinguishable what would you use to create the final work? Maybe you will not say "the digital process", but I know a great many who would. When digital camera sensors can replicate the random halide of film and films rich 3 dimensional qualities to the point even a microscope can not discern the difference, would you still shoot film?
I'm fairly confident some/many hybrid folks will ditch hybrid as digital methods finally "get there" for them. When a 20x40inch 20,000 dpi dedicated B&W dye-sub print for $10 can look identical to a silver gelatin print or lambda based silver gelatin print, what will these hybrid users then choose? Should we cater to that base of photographers caught in between processes and change the entire site just for them? I'm not saying ALL hybrid users are in limbo, and I'm not intending to insult anyone who sees themselves as always using hybrid no matter what (because the love it and are passionate about it). Can you argue that most hybrid users are not in limbo simply waiting for the digital side to catch up, then they'll be off? Should that base of photographers in waiting be considered the saviors of analog photography? How much longer will they be around once digital hits several more levels of mind blowing improvements vs. the base of members on APUG who chose long ago that their form of photography is analog based and that is that?
The only argument I can really see is that exposing some to hybrid process may trigger their curiosity, and they'll convert more work flow to the analog side. Fair enough argument, but to suggest APUG has a duty to cater to this is asking too much -of any web community for that matter. Or to suggest APUG will be responsible for the death of traditional for not embracing digital is again putting the weight of the world on this small discussion board. And that again takes us back to DPUG which has a heavy hybrid slant, there is no reason a robust DPUG can not successfully open some eyes to traditional methods and contribute exactly what you say we need.
Thomas, I do have some questions for you though and I hope it's not taken the wrong way. What hybrid process do you use? If the final result of that hybrid process can be replicated 100% digitally... I am talking a side by side comparison is absolutely 100% indistinguishable. Would you still use the hybrid process or go with the 100% digital work flow? Would you make a digital negative and hand made carbon print, or would you make a digital carbon print using a new type of home based $200 10,000dpi 3D printer (the 3D printer enabling the "digital" carbon print to have the subtle telltale raised surface features of a traditional carbon print)? If both were 100% indistinguishable what would you use to create the final work? Maybe you will not say "the digital process", but I know a great many who would. When digital camera sensors can replicate the random halide of film and films rich 3 dimensional qualities to the point even a microscope can not discern the difference, would you still shoot film?
I'm fairly confident some/many hybrid folks will ditch hybrid as digital methods finally "get there" for them. When a 20x40inch 20,000 dpi dedicated B&W dye-sub print for $10 can look identical to a silver gelatin print or lambda based silver gelatin print, what will these hybrid users then choose? Should we cater to that base of photographers caught in between processes and change the entire site just for them? I'm not saying ALL hybrid users are in limbo, and I'm not intending to insult anyone who sees themselves as always using hybrid no matter what (because the love it and are passionate about it). Can you argue that most hybrid users are not in limbo simply waiting for the digital side to catch up, then they'll be off? Should that base of photographers in waiting be considered the saviors of analog photography? How much longer will they be around once digital hits several more levels of mind blowing improvements vs. the base of members on APUG who chose long ago that their form of photography is analog based and that is that?
The only argument I can really see is that exposing some to hybrid process may trigger their curiosity, and they'll convert more work flow to the analog side. Fair enough argument, but to suggest APUG has a duty to cater to this is asking too much -of any web community for that matter. Or to suggest APUG will be responsible for the death of traditional for not embracing digital is again putting the weight of the world on this small discussion board. And that again takes us back to DPUG which has a heavy hybrid slant, there is no reason a robust DPUG can not successfully open some eyes to traditional methods and contribute exactly what you say we need.
I've posted questions at DPUG a few times and I've always gotten useful answers from knowledgeable people. I don't know what the answer is, but I know we need to encourage more use of "real" paper and chemicals to make sure they're around for years to come. I think the standard, "You should ask that at DPUG," response is a bit lame (and I know I've done it a few times myself). I wonder if there's a way to integrate the sites without making DPUG a subforum of APUG?
Seeing a print come up in the developer is what really got lots of photographers hooked on using a darkroom. Many people just don't have the space for one (or think they don't). Again, I don't know what the answer is, but getting as many APUGers as possible to show off darkrooms to people is one way to start.
I know the arguments for detaching the hybrid forum - I was around back then. I wasn't totally in favor of it then and I can also see how useful DPUG could be (like I said, I've gotten useful answers there). I just think that more integration might help. Automatically registering people for both with the same username and pw might be a start so they don't have to do it all over again might help. Being able to hit a button on a post to automatically post it on DPUG (or from DPUG to APUG) might help. It would at least make it easier to cross-post.
I know the aim of APUG is to be able to discuss analog methods only. I just think that over time it's also become a place to fight for the life of analog and to do what we can to keep it around. We show the world that people do use film, paper, and chemistry and that we buy it and want to continue doing so. I know that using hybrid methods isn't the goal of APUG. But if people use film to get the shot and print digitally or use digital to get the shot and then use analog to print it are all still using analog methods for part of the process. Somehow integrating the groups could help to keep both film and paper around.
Random thoughts late at night after a few glasses of wine....
Seeing a print come up in the developer is what really got lots of photographers hooked on using a darkroom. Many people just don't have the space for one (or think they don't). Again, I don't know what the answer is, but getting as many APUGers as possible to show off darkrooms to people is one way to start.
I know the arguments for detaching the hybrid forum - I was around back then. I wasn't totally in favor of it then and I can also see how useful DPUG could be (like I said, I've gotten useful answers there). I just think that more integration might help. Automatically registering people for both with the same username and pw might be a start so they don't have to do it all over again might help. Being able to hit a button on a post to automatically post it on DPUG (or from DPUG to APUG) might help. It would at least make it easier to cross-post.
I know the aim of APUG is to be able to discuss analog methods only. I just think that over time it's also become a place to fight for the life of analog and to do what we can to keep it around. We show the world that people do use film, paper, and chemistry and that we buy it and want to continue doing so. I know that using hybrid methods isn't the goal of APUG. But if people use film to get the shot and print digitally or use digital to get the shot and then use analog to print it are all still using analog methods for part of the process. Somehow integrating the groups could help to keep both film and paper around.
Random thoughts late at night after a few glasses of wine....
Sean
Admin
That has always been my ultimate goal, but software gets in the way. What little is available to connect 2 forums to one another is often a "hack" riddled with risk and bugs. I haven't given up yet, there are many forum owners in my shoes wanting to integrate 2 or more forums to share data between them. Maybe we can make progress soon. I'll check and see what the latest developments are.
Start small. The solution isn't technological (at least not in the beginning steps.) It honestly sounds like DPUG is something you'd like to grow, but actions over many years belie the words. Did you know that the Alternative Processes subforum here still references Hybridphoto? and that it never linked to the site? Anyone not in the know could fairly assume that the page the link goes to is the extent of it. The clear message has been disdain or maybe embarrassment for the "sister site". That's not a recipe to get people engaged.
I'll resist going all tedious on how sad the whole thing has been to those of us who had such high hopes for Hybridphoto, but the beast that's evolved is probably never going to please many people.
2 cents only (probably less)
d
I'll resist going all tedious on how sad the whole thing has been to those of us who had such high hopes for Hybridphoto, but the beast that's evolved is probably never going to please many people.
2 cents only (probably less)
d
Sean,
Thank you for adding yet more to the discussion.
In order to attempt to answer your question - for me it doesn't matter how a print is made, based on viewing pleasure alone. I don't care one iota how others make their work. A good photo is a good photo. That's it. The rest is all about preference and enjoyment.
I hate working with digital, simply because I don't use my hands to create. It's a thing of caressing the materials with my own hands that matters to me. So I don't mind the making of a lith print using a digital negative, as long as I don't have to make the negative myself.
See, it doesn't matter if digital finally 'gets there' or not. As far as I'm concerned, it's already there. I choose different methods, because I love doing it. No other reason, other than proven archival stability of silver gelatin, or platinum, or gravure. Inkjet frankly makes me nervous at best.
I'm also not suggesting that APUG or DPUG is responsible for carrying the world of silver gelatin photography and its future. I think what I, and many others in this discussion, are simply alluding to the fact that we can do SOMETHING to help, by just changing how we operate. Bob is doing an excellent job by teaching digital photographers how to make fabulous silver gelatin lith prints from digital negatives. That encourages use of silver gelatin paper and chemistry. That's a good thing for all of us. The more people there are like that, the better the chances are of helping this art form survive. Whether that comes from DPUG, APUG, its members, or sponsors, or advertisers, or subscribers, I don't really care. But it is in our own best interest to do SOMETHING. Bob is getting people to print silver from digital. I have bought a few inexpensive but nice cameras and given them away to people that have shown an interest in photography. I have taught them how to process film and given them access to my darkroom to print. I send them film now and then along with encouragement to pursue a darkroom of their own. I know others that do the same.
I'm very happy to have caught your attention, because I feel it's an important matter, and together I think we can do the world of silver gelatin photography, both traditional and hybrid, a favor by exploring the possibilities, and get more people into using the amazing materials we have today, to increase the 'fan base'. We're all smart people here, and I think if we smash our foreheads together we have the opportunity to do something positive for the community, and indirectly affect the future of APUG as we know it today.
MattKing
Moderator
I've said this before and I'll say it again.
If you want to encourage traffic between APUG and DPUG, encourage posting links between the sites in the threads themselves.
One could go as far as starting a matching thread (using the same title) in DPUG, then linking to it in the APUG thread where the subject first came up.
For example if Sean or David or ??? started a thread right now in DPUG titled "Encouraging Darkroom Use with Digital Negatives", linked to it in this thread, in the first post in the DPUG thread cross linked to this thread and the closed this thread down, what would happen?
If you want to encourage traffic between APUG and DPUG, encourage posting links between the sites in the threads themselves.
One could go as far as starting a matching thread (using the same title) in DPUG, then linking to it in the APUG thread where the subject first came up.
For example if Sean or David or ??? started a thread right now in DPUG titled "Encouraging Darkroom Use with Digital Negatives", linked to it in this thread, in the first post in the DPUG thread cross linked to this thread and the closed this thread down, what would happen?
Sean
Admin
I have cleaned up the APUG forum list and added a new link to DPUG there. I've also added a new DPUG ad in the APUG footer. Next step is some external marketing for DPUG to drive further traffic. As for stats DPUG is now getting 100's of unique visitors a day and 80 or so individuals actually logging in per day. The registrations are also steadily increasing, having in a short time gone from 0-1 per day to now getting 3-5 registrations per day. If we can maintain 5 per day this will then slowly increase to 5-7, 7-10 and things will be fairly active. Keep in mind we've yet to do any marketing there, so the numbers aren't too bad considering.
SuzanneR
Moderator
Interesting thread... I have to say that I'd like to see APUG stay on topic as a board to discuss the analog or traditional side of photography, but appreciate that these days the hybrid workflow that many are engaged in may well serve to keep analog materials in demand. I've been shooting color film myself lately, and have decided to print digitally. If I have any questions about that, I plan to turn to DPUG, because I like the tone and civility that Sean has fostered here, and I trust a lot of the photographers here more than I might on just about any other forum. That said, DPUG has felt a bit like the neglected kid, and I think making it easier to integrate between the two via linked threads would help create the kind of community across both forums without diluting the strength of either one is the best way to go.
Hmmm... thinking out loud here, maybe a shared lounge space??
Anyway, Sean is only one person, and it's a big job, and I don't think DPUG can really get off the ground without the participation of a lot enthusiastic photographers.
Hmmm... thinking out loud here, maybe a shared lounge space??
Anyway, Sean is only one person, and it's a big job, and I don't think DPUG can really get off the ground without the participation of a lot enthusiastic photographers.
Sean,
Very nice changes and plans for going forward. Excellent, actually
.
d
Very nice changes and plans for going forward. Excellent, actually
.d
Thank you! Sounds like a really great way to generate more traffic.
I also absorbed what you said about moving to a place that's less expensive, and so on, and I want to recognize the change you made, and applaud your effort to try to get DPUG up and really spinning. Good for you! I hope that eventually APUG and DPUG can really gel together, and that DPUG can actually be a tool to generate more interest in traditional products.
OP
OP
The majority of the time when I go to DPUG and click on New Posts the message is no new posts at this time. This is frustrating and at this time useless.
Sorry for opening this debate up Sean , you know my feelings about this site, it feels like home, there are more darkroom users here than on any other site, I feel comfortable and am really open to help, but I have to say that hybrid is the way of the future for all darkroom users, we need to get over this fact, I shoot and process as much film as most people on this site so I am comfortable with analoque, but printmaking is being driven to a hybrid approach, all the new papers and existing papers are being modified to accept laser exposure, making negs to lay on paper is historically correct and we are getting caught up with the simple fact that an computer assists us in doing our work these days.
The simple fact is this- currently most of the best printers in the world that are hanging art in museums are using digital devices to assist them in their work, most of their end output is sanctioned by APUG , and historically the materials we use.
I would like to see an area here for discussing all ways of making a fine print. otherwise I am going to go home and have a hissy fit.
I hope to post more students work as it comes in.
Sorry for opening this debate up Sean , you know my feelings about this site, it feels like home, there are more darkroom users here than on any other site, I feel comfortable and am really open to help, but I have to say that hybrid is the way of the future for all darkroom users, we need to get over this fact, I shoot and process as much film as most people on this site so I am comfortable with analoque, but printmaking is being driven to a hybrid approach, all the new papers and existing papers are being modified to accept laser exposure, making negs to lay on paper is historically correct and we are getting caught up with the simple fact that an computer assists us in doing our work these days.
The simple fact is this- currently most of the best printers in the world that are hanging art in museums are using digital devices to assist them in their work, most of their end output is sanctioned by APUG , and historically the materials we use.
I would like to see an area here for discussing all ways of making a fine print. otherwise I am going to go home and have a hissy fit.
I hope to post more students work as it comes in.
OP
OP
OP
OP
I just got off the phone with Dinesh my mentor and pretty much same idea was proposed.
I start a thread in Dpug, link it by copying the title and announce it here, those here who want to see the thread can click and view, those not wanting too can put me on ignore,
I will update on APUG as new info or posts gather on the Thread . It seems simple and maybe a better way of handling this.
Bob
I start a thread in Dpug, link it by copying the title and announce it here, those here who want to see the thread can click and view, those not wanting too can put me on ignore,
I will update on APUG as new info or posts gather on the Thread . It seems simple and maybe a better way of handling this.
Bob
OP
OP
Good for you Mr R .
Sean and David:
With all due respect, the argument that many hybrid users will dump analog if and when digital methods "arrive" for them is exactly the argument for including them in real darkroom discussions now. Encouraging new people to get their hands wet for now, as Thomas mentioned, can make a lifelong difference for some and will discourage some (not all) of them from dumping the wet print -- even when the digital machine of their choice comes along.
I applaud the efforts for integrating the two sites and the respectful (until recently) tone of this discussion so far. And I can appreciate the difficulties of stemming the flow of digital noise; we have to do it every day in our real lives. Perhaps the answer is not bringing digital back here, but I think we might want a Promote Analog thread/sticky or separate forum where we can brainstorm about helping film and paper survive.
With all due respect, the argument that many hybrid users will dump analog if and when digital methods "arrive" for them is exactly the argument for including them in real darkroom discussions now. Encouraging new people to get their hands wet for now, as Thomas mentioned, can make a lifelong difference for some and will discourage some (not all) of them from dumping the wet print -- even when the digital machine of their choice comes along.
I applaud the efforts for integrating the two sites and the respectful (until recently) tone of this discussion so far. And I can appreciate the difficulties of stemming the flow of digital noise; we have to do it every day in our real lives. Perhaps the answer is not bringing digital back here, but I think we might want a Promote Analog thread/sticky or separate forum where we can brainstorm about helping film and paper survive.
I think it's a good compromise.
Please, Michael, this has been a very valuable and productive discussion. Don't drag it into a schoolyard squabble. There is still some value to be gleaned from this thread if we don't force the mods to shut it down.
Bob, besides preparing images for my site or my occasional posts here, I don't have any hybrid aspects to my process as of yet, so I likely won't be seeing your progress on DPUG. Please keep us up to date on this side of the curtain as well.
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