Lines running down negatives, another one of those threads...

erikg · Jun 4, 2011

That is my experience too, Matt. Scratches on the base tend to print white, while scratches on the emulsion side print black. Scanning may behave differently. Edwal no-scratch or nose grease can be effective on base scratches. It is strange that it shows up in the same place on so many rolls. That does suggest a mechanical fault, but with two cameras? The irregularity of the lines suggests a processing problem however. A puzzle for sure.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 4, 2011

MattKing said:
Thomas:

If one scratches the base on film, it tends to decrease the light transmission at that point. So it isn't unusual to have scratches in the base appear lighter in the print.

Yes. That's what I said above. I should have explained better. For the damage to be on the emulsion side, something needs to be added to the emulsion to make the picture lighter, which would be the opposite of what a scratch does.

In camera, the film is protected by the paper backing. The film back will not scratch in camera, which makes it a either a product issue or a processing issue.

- Thomas

GraemeMitchell · Jun 4, 2011

It's really really hard to tell, even w/ a loupe, which side the damage is on. I think it's on one, then I think it's on another.

BUT, I just ran 5 rolls as a test. 3 through one of the Fujis. (1 as is and 2 after blowing the inside out w/ compressed air). And the other 2 each w/ a hasselblad and Pentax 67 that I know are fine.

Film is drying now.

I also too the alcohol out of the equation. Everything else stayed exactly the same.

GraemeMitchell · Jun 4, 2011

I just pulled the film down and put it on the light box. The pentax and hassy film is right on, not a mark on it.

The Fuji film has the same wavering scratch down the length on the end of one roll, and the full length of the other two. On one it is notably worse. When I shot the test frames, I shot one really fast, winding as quick and as hard as I might if I was shooting quickly. My guess is, is that that is the roll where it is more pronounced.

Bummer. Hopefully it's something that can be fixed. I bought both the cameras from KEH, I'm outside of the 2 week grace period at this point.

GraemeMitchell · Jun 4, 2011

Okay, I did what should have been obvious before and I pulled the film off the light box, if you look at it from an angle the lines are really more visible. You can see it in the first attached picture here.

So this made it more obvious, and I looked in the camera and the edge of the pressure plates in these fujis have these little notches. See second attached pic. Which, of course line up right on w/ the lines.

I mean, could that be it? And the wavering of it??? Well, if I grip the camera tight I can see the back flex in, so maybe I'm gripping and loosening as I wind and it's making it move like that?

Maybe it's now more of a question specific to Fuji GW and GSW III rangefinders.

Bob-D659 · Jun 4, 2011

Pressure marks will "expose" more silver, causing a light mark on the print, same as when you crease a film when loading. Check the film gate where the edge of the pressure plate will sit.

erikg · Jun 4, 2011

I have the same two models and I've never seen this but that's not to say it couldn't happen. I don't get wavering part. Winding without flexing the back should be the easy test.

Worker 11811 · Jun 4, 2011

I think the scratch is on the emulsion side. Look at the third image you attached to your first post. See the tiny, curlycue shaped pieces of dust, lying along the line of the scratch? Those are little bits of emulsion that were scraped from the surface as it passed over some foreign object.

I think the scratch happened while the film was moving left to right with respect to the images you have posted.
Since the image is upside down in the camera gate, that probably means that they were created as the film was advanced to the next frame.
I'm not 100% certain how the film path of this camera works. I'm only guessing from my own experience.

This could possibly be the reason why they are wavy. The film moves, gets scratched then stops. The process repeats each time you crank the film forward.

Others have said that light is diffused as it passes through damaged film, causing it to appear darker than the image. This is true but the caveat is that the scratch must only penetrate the surface layer of the gelatin. If the scratch was deep enough to disturb the grains of silver (or dye) it would produce a totally white mark on black and white film which would appear as opaque black on a print. That would be a non-repairable scratch. In your case, I don't think you have disturbed the image-bearing layer. Only the surface. Applying some scratch concealer fluid might help.

I'm going to guess that the scratch happened AFTER the image was taken. This would lead me to believe that there is a piece of crud or a burr some place on the right side of the film gate.

Lay a piece of the damaged film in the film gate and compare the location of the damage to the parts of the rails, rollers and pressure plates that the film comes in contact with. This will help you localize your search. Then get a piece of thin silk cloth or a pair of pantyhose and rub it along the film path. The material will catch on any burrs. You can also use the thin edge of a guitar pick as a feeler. If there are any burrs you will feel a distinct "click" as the pick rides over them.

It could be a piece of crud stuck in the film path but I think it's a burr. If it was a piece of crud, it wouldn't have lasted through 30 or 40 rolls of film. It would have eventually worn away. Whatever it is must be stationary.

tkamiya · Jun 4, 2011

I still don't think it's a scratch caused in the camera. OP says it happens on two different cameras and the lines aren't straight or parallel to the edge.

One thing I actually experienced. I used to dry film for about 2 hours and cut, then sleeve. What happened was that after 2 hours of drying process, my film bone felt dry to touch but apparently, emulsion hasn't finished drying. The act of sleeving - an act of pushing film into a plastic sleeve caused minute dust to cause some scratches. They caused very similar scratching. After letting dry all film overnight cured my problem.

I also wouldn't discount the possibility that your scratches are caused by more than one reason.

tkamiya · Jun 4, 2011

Are you using 120 or 220 films??

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 5, 2011

A scratch on the emulsion side would make it look darker, not lighter.

Worker 11811 said:
I think the scratch is on the emulsion side. Look at the third image you attached to your first post. See the tiny, curlycue shaped pieces of dust, lying along the line of the scratch? Those are little bits of emulsion that were scraped from the surface as it passed over some foreign object.

I think the scratch happened while the film was moving left to right with respect to the images you have posted.
Since the image is upside down in the camera gate, that probably means that they were created as the film was advanced to the next frame.
I'm not 100% certain how the film path of this camera works. I'm only guessing from my own experience.

This could possibly be the reason why they are wavy. The film moves, gets scratched then stops. The process repeats each time you crank the film forward.

Others have said that light is diffused as it passes through damaged film, causing it to appear darker than the image. This is true but the caveat is that the scratch must only penetrate the surface layer of the gelatin. If the scratch was deep enough to disturb the grains of silver (or dye) it would produce a totally white mark on black and white film which would appear as opaque black on a print. That would be a non-repairable scratch. In your case, I don't think you have disturbed the image-bearing layer. Only the surface. Applying some scratch concealer fluid might help.

I'm going to guess that the scratch happened AFTER the image was taken. This would lead me to believe that there is a piece of crud or a burr some place on the right side of the film gate.

Lay a piece of the damaged film in the film gate and compare the location of the damage to the parts of the rails, rollers and pressure plates that the film comes in contact with. This will help you localize your search. Then get a piece of thin silk cloth or a pair of pantyhose and rub it along the film path. The material will catch on any burrs. You can also use the thin edge of a guitar pick as a feeler. If there are any burrs you will feel a distinct "click" as the pick rides over them.

It could be a piece of crud stuck in the film path but I think it's a burr. If it was a piece of crud, it wouldn't have lasted through 30 or 40 rolls of film. It would have eventually worn away. Whatever it is must be stationary.

David Hatton · Jun 5, 2011

Just a thought, could it be a couple of duff sensor elements in your scanner or, if you have specks of dirt in the calibration area of your scanner that could do it
David

GraemeMitchell · Jun 5, 2011

Hey guys, it's on two different Fuji cameras, BUT it's in different places for each camera. So each is exhibiting the same problem in different places.

To me the marks look like they line up w/ those edged notches on the pressure plate, almost perfectly. But I could be wrong. And it still doesn't explain the wavering. Though these Fujis are a double stroke advance, which may add to it...

The film is hung to dry over night. And I don't sleeve it...it's enveloped. But I can see these marks on the film before I even cut it. When they're slight, they're very very slight and you need a loupe to see them. When they're prominent you can easily see them at arms length.

It's def not the scanner. Look at the last set of pictures of the actual film I posted on pg 3. You can see how defined the lines are at spots if held to the light at an angle.

David Hatton · Jun 5, 2011

hi,
I see dark lines on the unexposed area of the film. How can that be?

erikg · Jun 5, 2011

Maybe stupid question, but are the pressure plates set for 120 or 220?

GraemeMitchell · Jun 5, 2011

David, it's REALLY strange. But it's an angle thing. If I look at them straight on a light box I see thin hard lines, clear, less density. Usually. Sometimes though, when pronounced it takes on a thicker charachteristic that looks like more density. Then it changes if you hold the film up under a light and look it's almost like the base is rubbed off, but if you tilt it it takes on more density and is much easier to see.

I think it's gotta be the pressure plate. I think it's a mix of scratching and pressure exposing the film more. These notches on the edge of the pressure plate are weird. They're sharp on the corner. And the one that lines up w/ my scratch is pulled out a tiny bit. My thought is maybe it was damaged when someone was flipping from 120 to 220.

Still weird as all get out how wavy it is. Almost like the film is totally loose in the back. Or it wavers from one edge of that notch to the other end. Maybe the film is kinking in there? And that's causing a wavering pressure...and then it scratching at times on top of that...

This is interesting b/c it's rather similar, at least the spacing and (at times) the double line bit:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

"there are two sets of double lined scratches that appear about 10mm in from the top and bottom of the film. The scratches always appear as a double line about 3 or 4mm apart (at a guess), but are not a continous line but often only about 2 or 3mm in length"

GraemeMitchell · Jun 5, 2011

erikg said:
Maybe stupid question, but are the pressure plates set for 120 or 220?

Erik, 120.

When you open your camera's do you see the little notches I'm referring to on the edges of pressure plate?

The line/scratch/marks are always within the confines of one of those. I'll attach the pic of the one that looks wanky. There's even some visual signs of rubbing on it.

Is yours like that?

The part that I guess would just amount to bad luck is that I bought two cameras w/ the same problem.

erikg · Jun 5, 2011

Could be, but I don't get the wavering part, or if it is a scratch on the base how that happens through the paper backing. You could take the pressure plate out completely or swap them between the cameras to see if there is a change, that could narrow it down.

David Hatton · Jun 5, 2011

I see a scenario where the pressure plate is only operating on th e right hand side leaving slack film to the left which is dragged back into place when you adva nice the film...........maybe

erikg · Jun 5, 2011

That "could be" refers to your post prior to your last. My plates do not look like that, it does look like something has gone out of adjustment or gotten bent on the one in your photo. Does seem suspect for sure. Looks like a fairly easy fix, though.

GraemeMitchell · Jun 5, 2011

David Hatton said:
I see a scenario where the pressure plate is only operating on th e right hand side leaving slack film to the left which is dragged back into place when you adva nice the film...........maybe

David, that might make sense in conjunction w/ the fact that the big cameras plastic back flexes when I squeeze it. So say I'm gripping and winding the right side, it would in theory push the right side of the plate harder and lift the left side.

Anyway, I think I'm going to stop w/ this theory. All my other film is perfectly fine from other cameras, perfectly. The GW is already at Nippon photo. And I'll take the GSW in Monday. Going to take some film along. They should be able to say what's up. Maybe it'll come down to needing new pressure plates, which I'm fine w/. Great cameras otherwise. Worth it.

erikg · Jun 5, 2011

Now I'm going to keep a close look on mine. I love these cameras, hope you have the solution.

GraemeMitchell · Jun 5, 2011

erikg said:
Now I'm going to keep a close look on mine. I love these cameras, hope you have the solution.

Yes, they are lovely. Certainly this is something I'll look for if I buy other ones down the road.

BTW I appreciate all the help. Little things like this can be maddening to figure out.

erikg · Jun 5, 2011

These things can drive you nuts. Post back when you can. I think you've got it but it would be great to know.

GraemeMitchell · Jun 24, 2011

Been awhile, but as an end to this: I took both these cameras to Nippon to look for anwsers, one needed a CLA anyway.

At first, they didn't think it was the camera, but then they agreed it was strangely consistent and mechanical so agreed to look into it. They didn't know what to think.

They made some adjustments to the pressure plates and tightened the film spool "brake" and they ran 220 test rolls for scratches and it came out perfectly fine. So, they said it wasn't the cameras, and I felt crazy. BUT, all the film I've ran fine since has been fine also.

So problem solved, but mystery unsolved. I'm glad to see it's gone, of course, but it's still unclear what was doing it.

Lines running down negatives, another one of those threads...

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