Lens comparable to Schneider-Kreuznach Retina lens, and adaptable to Pentax K-mount?

Lacock Abbey detail

A
Lacock Abbey detail

  • 0
  • 1
  • 10
Tyndall Bruce

A
Tyndall Bruce

  • 0
  • 0
  • 35
TEXTURES

A
TEXTURES

  • 4
  • 0
  • 61
Small Craft Club

A
Small Craft Club

  • 2
  • 0
  • 55
RED FILTER

A
RED FILTER

  • 1
  • 0
  • 47

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
198,905
Messages
2,782,818
Members
99,743
Latest member
HypnoRospo
Recent bookmarks
0

runswithsizzers

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2019
Messages
1,760
Location
SW Missouri, USA
Format
Multi Format
A few years ago, a friend of a friend gave me a Kodak Retina Reflex IV and 3 lenses. I shot few rolls of film with it, but I did not like using the camera, so I sold the kit.

Recently, I was looking at some of those photos and I realized they have a special look that I have not noticed from my Pentax and Konica lenses. It is a sort of old-fashioned look I associate with an older era of photography, and by "older," I think I mean before 1950??

The lenses I used for those photos were:
Schneider-Kreuznach Retina-Curtagon 35mm f/2.8, and
Schneider-Kreuznach Retina-Xenar 50mm f/2.8

Does anyone know if there are any lenses with similar optical designs to these two which might be mounted on a Pentax K-mount camera with an adapter?

Thank you
 
Joined
Feb 15, 2023
Messages
601
Location
UK
Format
Multi Format
I think the Xenar is usually just a Tessar. There should be Tessar-types you could adapt. But there is a five-element Xenar that I think they made to achieve the f/2.8 for 35mm cameras; that may be what the Retina Reflex had. I have a 75mm f/2.8 Xenar from a dead folding camera, and I cobbled it onto my Canon AE-1 using a body-cap, an extension tube and some Araldite.



It being from a folder gave me the spare length to adapt it; you might find you struggle to fit those shorter lenses and still make infinity focus.

The camera-wiki page has a picture with diagrams of some of the lenses:

And you can click through to those pictures full-size at Flickr.
 
Last edited:

Dan Fromm

Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
6,823
Format
Multi Format
Adapting a Retina Reflex lens in DKL mount is probably impossible without machining. Retina Reflex IV lenses are in DKL mount, flange-focal distance 44.7 mm. K mount's FFD is 45.46 mm.

The lenses were also made for the Exakta Real, FFD 44.7 mm. Same problem.
 

Ian Grant

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Messages
23,266
Location
West Midland
Format
Multi Format
Adapting a Retina Reflex lens in DKL mount is probably impossible without machining. Retina Reflex IV lenses are in DKL mount, flange-focal distance 44.7 mm. K mount's FFD is 45.46 mm.

The lenses were also made for the Exakta Real, FFD 44.7 mm. Same problem.

They were also made for Edixa cameras.

Ian
 
OP
OP
runswithsizzers

runswithsizzers

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2019
Messages
1,760
Location
SW Missouri, USA
Format
Multi Format
Adapting a Retina Reflex lens in DKL mount is probably impossible without machining. Retina Reflex IV lenses are in DKL mount, flange-focal distance 44.7 mm. K mount's FFD is 45.46 mm.

The lenses were also made for the Exakta Real, FFD 44.7 mm. Same problem.
I do not want to adapt either of these two DKL mount Retina Reflex lenses to Pentax K-mount, as I no longer have them.

What I am looking for, is some other model of lenses with similar optical properties which might be made to work on Pentax K-mount cameras by using some kind of adapter.
 

Ian Grant

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Messages
23,266
Location
West Midland
Format
Multi Format
M42 to K mount adapters are cheap. Both those Schneider lenses were made as I said above in M42 mount but they are rarer so more expensive than possible alternatives.

The Xenar is a Tessar type lens which is why I suggested the 50mm f2.8 CZJ Tessar, these are plentiful and cheap, for a wide angle the Meyer 29m f2.8 Lydith would be a good match, later versions of both are branded Pentacon.

Ian
 

Dan Fromm

Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
6,823
Format
Multi Format
I do not want to adapt either of these two DKL mount Retina Reflex lenses to Pentax K-mount, as I no longer have them.

What I am looking for, is some other model of lenses with similar optical properties which might be made to work on Pentax K-mount cameras by using some kind of adapter.

If you're going to buy, why not buy the Retina Reflex lenses that do what you want? There's no guarantee that other apparently similar lenses will have the same, um character.

If you want to find people who might have done comparisons that could help you, photrio is the wrong place to look. The obsessive(s) you need are more likely to be on http://mflenses.com/.
 
OP
OP
runswithsizzers

runswithsizzers

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2019
Messages
1,760
Location
SW Missouri, USA
Format
Multi Format
A CZJ 42mm screw fit 50mm f2.8Tessar, or 50mm f2.8 Xenar, and a similar fit 35nn f2.8 Curtagon, plus the bayonet adapter.

Ian
M42 to K mount adapters are cheap. Both those Schneider lenses were made as I said above in M42 mount but they are rarer so more expensive than possible alternatives.

The Xenar is a Tessar type lens which is why I suggested the 50mm f2.8 CZJ Tessar, these are plentiful and cheap, for a wide angle the Meyer 29m f2.8 Lydith would be a good match, later versions of both are branded Pentacon.

Ian
Thanks for your helpful reply. I will be investigating your suggested lenses in more depth as time allows. Having only ever used Pentax (M42 and K-mount) and more recently, Konica AR lenses, I am unfamiliar with the "CZJ" so I'll need to educate myself more about what they offer.

I will also see if I can find the Schneider-Kreuznach lenses with M42 screw mount. Glad to hear that might be an option.

After taking only a brief glance at your recommendations, those seem to all be screw mount (M42), right? I have discovered there are numerous M42-to-K-mount adapters which are very affordable, but I have also read several warnings to avoid the cheap ones because some say they can be difficult to remove. I was shocked to see that B&H photo wants <$100(US)> for a genuine Pentax brand M42 to K mount adapter!! I have a Pentax Spotmatic SP camera which needs a CLA, and I am pretty sure I can get a CLA done on the Spotmatic for about the same price that B&H wants for the Pentax M42 adapter.
 

dynachrome

Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2006
Messages
1,758
Format
35mm
If you want to try a nice Tessar design, consider a 45/2.8 GN Nikkor. A Nikon to Konica adapter will connect things. You will not have auto diaphragm operation but you will have correct infinity focus. The original adapters made by Konica are hard to find and some won't lock into place. Third party adapters can work well too.
 
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
1,288
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format
Adapting a Retina Reflex lens in DKL mount is probably impossible without machining. Retina Reflex IV lenses are in DKL mount, flange-focal distance 44.7 mm. K mount's FFD is 45.46 mm.

The lenses were also made for the Exakta Real, FFD 44.7 mm. Same problem.

I don't know which of the several flanges of the Deckel mount they measured. Probably one of the inner ones that fit inside a K mount. The good news is I have a glassless adapter for a Bessamatic lens and can use it on a Pentax MX just fine. The Retina Reflex lenses should work the same, no?
I would however prefer the M42 solution if that provides automatic diaphragm action.
Also the Bessamatic lenses have terrible minimum focus distances, which I suspect may also be the same for the Retina reflex lenses.
 
Last edited:

dynachrome

Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2006
Messages
1,758
Format
35mm
If you are fond of M42 cameras and lenses then there is another solution. There is a P adapter for the Mamiya Auto XTL and Auto X1000. It allows the use of M42 lenses with correct infinity focus. If the lens has the standard aperture pin then you get stop down metering. You also have the choice of spot or average metering.
 
OP
OP
runswithsizzers

runswithsizzers

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2019
Messages
1,760
Location
SW Missouri, USA
Format
Multi Format
If you want to try a nice Tessar design, consider a 45/2.8 GN Nikkor. A Nikon to Konica adapter will connect things. You will not have auto diaphragm operation but you will have correct infinity focus. The original adapters made by Konica are hard to find and some won't lock into place. Third party adapters can work well too.
Thanks for the suggestion. It never occurred to me to investigate putting older lenses on my Konicas (T3n and T4). I assumed I would have more options to mount third party lenses on my Pentax cameras because they were more popular than Konica, but apparently, the Konicas may have a more favorable film-to-flange distance...?
 

MarkS

Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2004
Messages
503
About 15 years ago I ran some color neg through a Retina Reflex IV that had been a desk decoration at work. In the spirit of "how well does it work?" and "what's it like to handle this 1960s machine?"
It was in perfect working condition. The prints that came back were noticeably low in contrast, with a little more flare than we are used to with modern lenses. There was no visible haze in any of the three lenses I tried yet the "look' was far different than photos from more modern lenses, pastel rather than vibrant. I was not intrigued enough to experiment further, and the camera went back to being a museum piece. I don't know how this relates to what you saw with your R-R, and I'm not making any claims about these Schneider lenses, simply reporting my experience.
 
OP
OP
runswithsizzers

runswithsizzers

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2019
Messages
1,760
Location
SW Missouri, USA
Format
Multi Format
About 15 years ago I ran some color neg through a Retina Reflex IV that had been a desk decoration at work. In the spirit of "how well does it work?" and "what's it like to handle this 1960s machine?"
It was in perfect working condition. The prints that came back were noticeably low in contrast, with a little more flare than we are used to with modern lenses. There was no visible haze in any of the three lenses I tried yet the "look' was far different than photos from more modern lenses, pastel rather than vibrant. I was not intrigued enough to experiment further, and the camera went back to being a museum piece. I don't know how this relates to what you saw with your R-R, and I'm not making any claims about these Schneider lenses, simply reporting my experience.
You bring up a good point. That is, What is this look (feeling?) in the Retina Reflex IV photos that caught my attention? And how much of that look is actually due to the Schneider-Kreuznach lenses I used?

I did not attempt to describe or illustrate the look that I was seeing, which was probably a mistake on my part. This thread quickly decided it was the Tessar lens design of the Schneider-Kreuznach lenses that created what I was seeing, but I suspect that is only partially true. For example, I assume various Tessar lenses may have different numbers of aperture blades, which may be curved or straight -- and those factors might affect out-of-focus rendering? Mostly, I use black and white film, but maybe the lens coatings are contributing some small part? And I am guessing that not all Tessar lenses are equally sharp in the middle and become less sharp at the edges? So maybe some Tessar lenses would contribute more to to the look I was seeing, and others might contribute less?

As for "modern" I already have a fair number of "modern" (semi-modern?) lenses designed and made by Pentax and Konica in the 1970s and 1980s. To be clear, what I am looking for is lenses that have less modern rendering. I hate the way that sounds, because I roll my eyes everytime someone starts talking about how their lens has "pixie dust," or "3-D pop," or "bokeh," so I am not going to use the word "vintage." But I realize "less modern rendering" is no more precise, and for that, I apologize.

Examples may be more useful than definitions. As an extreme example of what I mean by less modern rendering, the photos of Eugene Atchet come to mind. I expect it would be quite difficult to reproduce what Atchet did using a 35mm camera loaded with modern film -- but I would like to see if I can get photos that look a little bit more Atchet, and a little bit less modern, if that makes any sense? Obviously, the subject matter, composition, lighting, depth-of-field, film stock, developer, and toners all play a much bigger role in how the image feels to the viewer than does the lens.

Here are the photos that started me down this rabbit hole. The first one (lion) was taken with the Schneider-Kreuznach Retina-Curtagon 35mm f/2.8, and the second one (skull) with the
Schneider-Kreuznach Retina-Xenar 50mm f/2.8. Both are from Ilford HP5+ negatives processed in stock D-76. I think what caught my eye is the way the out-of-focus areas are rendered, especially in those areas which are transitioning from sharp to not-sharp. The backgrounds have a little bit of a dreamy look, but perhaps that is due more to my light and depth-of-field than it is to the lenses(?)



 
Last edited:

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
53,008
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
Don't discount the role that the camera's viewing system plays in the final result.
The photographs we end up with are heavily influenced by what we see during the process of making them.
 

MarkS

Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2004
Messages
503
The three lenses that I used back then were the 50/1.9 Xenon, an 85/4 and a 135mm, all made by Schneider for Kodak. Perhaps the 85mm was a Tessar formula; the others, not. Certainly they were sharp enough, although I was not testing carefully. I might have used the camera more had I not had modern Nikons and Leicas at home already... that I was perfectly used to. The R-R's handling did not feel as good, and those are slower cameras to use, more like a MF camera in that regard.

Someone named Rauschenberg (not the painter) had an exhibition at the George Eastman Museum about 15 years ago. He'd wandered around Paris and "re-photographed" sites that Atget had photographed long ago. He used 35mm b/w; I thought the results were underwhelming to say the least.

Best of luck on your quest- it sometimes happens that we find a lens that "sees" just the way we like.
 
Last edited:

mrosenlof

Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
Messages
621
Location
Colorado
Format
Multi Format
The SMC-Pentax-M 40mm f/2.8 is a Tessar formula lens. The K mount adapter is built in. :smile:
 

dynachrome

Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2006
Messages
1,758
Format
35mm
One thing I forgot to mention about the Mamiya with the P adapter is that you also get auto diaphragm operation. I have two of the 40mm f/2.8 SMC Pentax-M lenses and one other very odd one. It's a Vivitar 40mm f/2.5 "pancake", type. I have only seen this lens in K mount. One more oddball is the 50mm f/2.8 Rikenon. I don't know if it qualifies as a Tessar design but another very nice small lens is the 40mm f/1.8 Konica Hexanon.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom