Lens advice for medium format

Mike Chalmers · Jul 14, 2019

MattKing said:
Sorry, I was trying to answer that part of your question with the last part of my post.
Assuming both lenses are in good condition, when it comes to comparing cheap lenses to better lenses, and assuming you are printing close to full frame, at the centre of the image the resolution and the contrast is likely to be at least slightly less than what you would achieve with a better lens. Nearer the edges, the differences are usually more obvious. There also may be a difference in the evenness of illumination.
All of those differences are strongly related to how much magnification you are using. The 8"x10" or smaller prints are likely to be fairly similar in appearance. Anything requiring more magnification is more likely to show more differences.
Some of the more expensive lenses also offer some convenience features like illuminated aperture scales and switchable aperture range restrictions. Those features are nice, but not necessary, and there are really good lenses that don't have them.
There are additional differences if you are considering printing colour - better lenses tend to give better and more consistent results across the colour spectrum.
I've printed with and enjoyed using less expensive lenses - a 75mm Rodagon Ysaron is an example that comes to mind. If starting out with a less expensive lens is going to get you printing earlier, and more, I would say go for it.

That's some fab advice, thanks Matt.

Yes, going to be exclusively printing in colour for the forseeable future but will be on the lookout for the issues you mention and will try to keep track if I do end up getting a lower-end lens. Still need to get th 67 upgrade kit, which is even harder to find so that's my first priority. I have a bag of papers left over from the course I did in a light-sealed box so priority for equipment is currently 1) 67 upgrade kit (lens board, mixing box, 67 insert, anti newton glass) 2) Lens and 3) RA-4 chemicals.

I do remember that the lenses I used had illuminated apertures which was quite nice. I do plan on smaller prints initially, though I'm sure I'll want to break free of limitations at some point too.

Cheers!

etn · Jul 14, 2019

RalphLambrecht said:
Also, cleaning the neg and carrier with an antistatic brush prior to printing helps;canned air is expensive and just blows the dust around.

Thanks for the tip, I haven't thought about this, will give it a try!

Paul Howell · Jul 14, 2019

If your going to be printing color I would really give some thought a newer lens with modern coatings, and if you have deep pockets an APO lens. I haven't printed color in many, (and I mean many) years, getting set up to print color next week or so. Bought a LP 6X7 with color head, once it arrives and set up will be ready. I Rather than my Wollensaks will be my 60mm 5.6 Componon started to look at an APO lens, maybe a Nikon.

Mike Chalmers · Jul 14, 2019

Paul Howell said:
If your going to be printing color I would really give some thought a newer lens with modern coatings, and if you have deep pockets an APO lens. I haven't printed color in many, (and I mean many) years, getting set up to print color next week or so. Bought a LP 6X7 with color head, once it arrives and set up will be ready. I Rather than my Wollensaks will be my 60mm 5.6 Componon started to look at an APO lens, maybe a Nikon.

Thanks Paul, as I've mentioned I don't have deep pockets at the moment and while people have been recommending APO in this thread (and it's something I'm aiming for in the near future), it's not currently possible.

Pieter12 · Jul 14, 2019

Does anyone know if Schneider changed the optical design of their companion S lenses when they introduced the current lenses with the blue or green stripe?

Mike Chalmers · Jul 15, 2019

etn said:
Man, is that obscure... and I am native French speaker! Apparently the glass carrier is called VEGACOLSET 67. It comes with an anti-newton glass and a few other accessories (such as a tube for the lens etc.). Mike, if you buy one, be sure that it is sold with all accessories unless you already have some. I don't feel like writing a full translation of the above text, but can provide you the important points if you wish. (also over the phone... we can discuss in pm)

A brief update - although I'm no further with a lens, I've managed to get a service in Asia to order the VEGACOLSET 67 locally and then send on to me. Hopefully this works out okay as it was very reasonably priced.

Mike Chalmers · Jul 16, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
A brief update - although I'm no further with a lens, I've managed to get a service in Asia to order the VEGACOLSET 67 locally and then send on to me. Hopefully this works out okay as it was very reasonably priced.

Scrap that, it was ordered then the company in Korea said they didn't actually have it :-(

M Carter · Jul 16, 2019

Keep in mind that the EL-Nikkor 80mm is designed for 6x7 or 6x8 negs (I'd double check the 6x8 figure, I use one for 6x7 though). There's also an excellent 105mm EL-Nikkor out there, I have one and it's just fine.

Mike Chalmers · Jul 19, 2019

Thank you all for your help and advice. I've just bought a Rodenstock Rodagon 105mm F5.6 for £15

Now I just need to be able to convert my system to use it!

Cheers

Paul Howell · Jul 20, 2019

You got a good lens, at a decent price, you may need to find a retaining ring, at worse have the lens board drilled.

Mike Chalmers · Jul 20, 2019

Paul Howell said:
You got a good lens, at a decent price, you may need to find a retaining ring, at worse have the lens board drilled.

Thanks Paul, knowing zero about retaining rings, what do they do? Might I have one with my 50mm?

And what's this about drilling the lens board?

Apologies for my lack of knowledge, still just starting out and my enlarger is packed away most of the time, although I do plan on getting it out today or tomorrow and figuring some things out.

Cheers

MattKing · Jul 20, 2019

A retaining ring (aka jam nut) screws on to the threads at the back of the lens.
Some lens mounts have the threads built in to the hole - you just screw the (appropriately sized) threads on the back of the lens into that threaded hole, and you have mounted your lens.
Slightly more commonly, the lens mount has a slightly larger, unthreaded hole. You insert the (appropriately sized) threads on the back of the lens through that unthreaded hole, screw the retainer ring on to the threads on the other side of the mount, the retainer ring holds the lens against the board and you have mounted your lens.
Some lens mounts are just appropriately sized boards. As lenses come in a few different sizes, boards sometimes come with no hole in them, with the intention that you have the right size hole drilled to match your lens.
Other lens mounts are more complex than just boards - I think, but am not sure, your enlarger requires something more complex than just a flat board.

Mike Chalmers · Jul 20, 2019

MattKing said:
A retaining ring (aka jam nut) screws on to the threads at the back of the lens.
Some lens mounts have the threads built in to the hole - you just screw the (appropriately sized) threads on the back of the lens into that threaded hole, and you have mounted your lens.
Slightly more commonly, the lens mount has a slightly larger, unthreaded hole. You insert the (appropriately sized) threads on the back of the lens through that unthreaded hole, screw the retainer ring on to the threads on the other side of the mount, the retainer ring holds the lens against the board and you have mounted your lens.
Some lens mounts are just appropriately sized boards. As lenses come in a few different sizes, boards sometimes come with no hole in them, with the intention that you have the right size hole drilled to match your lens.
Other lens mounts are more complex than just boards - I think, but am not sure, your enlarger requires something more complex than just a flat board.

Thanks for the info Matt. I will need to confirm this, but since my englarger currently has a lens with the same thread size - and I need to get a new lens board adapter (VEGOTUB 39), I think I might be covered (I either might have a retainer ring - or I may not need one).

I'm always happy to brush up on my knowledge!

Cheers

Martin Rickards · Jul 20, 2019

The negative to film distance generally has to be a bit less for 35mm than for M/F. On my Meopta Opemus this is solved by the lens board being domed and being reversed when changing between film formats.

Mike Chalmers · Jul 20, 2019

Martin Rickards said:
The negative to film distance generally has to be a bit less for 35mm than for M/F. On my Meopta Opemus this is solved by the lens board being domed and being reversed when changing between film formats.

Hi Martin, do you mean negative to lens? That sounds like a good system, I have to find an overpriced and hard to come-by adapter (VEGATUB 39). I'm not entirely sure what would happened if I attempted it without this lens board adapter (meaning that the lens would be 33mm further from the negative than it is designed for at this length - 105mm).

MattKing · Jul 20, 2019

Actually, I think it would be more correct to say that if you were to try to use your current lens mount, you would find that the 105mm lens is (33mm) too close to the negative - itmight even protrude back so far as to bang in to the negative.
The "Tub" is like an extension tube - it moves the (nodal point of) the lens to the appropriate distance (105mm) from the negative, when the lens is focussed appropriately for a particular magnification (1:1?).
Those mounts have both an optical (achieve appropriate magnification) role and a mechanical (avoid hitting something with the back of the lens) role.
I wonder if an extension tube like this might work for you: https://www.ebay.com/itm/m39-39mm-thread-extension-tube-26mm-long-/372643471294?redirect=mobile
It might use the same threads.

Mike Chalmers · Jul 20, 2019

MattKing said:
Those mounts have both an optical (achieve appropriate magnification) role and a mechanical (avoid hitting something with the back of the lens) role.
I wonder if an extension tube like this might work for you: https://www.ebay.com/itm/m39-39mm-thread-extension-tube-26mm-long-/372643471294?redirect=mobile

Ah right, fascinating. The tube designed for it is this on (VEGATUB 39) so I'm not sure if the slight domed shape (similar to Matthew's comment above) means I can't use straight tubes..

Looking on eBay UK, I see there are several of the ones you mention - including a m39 39mm thread that's 39mm (closer to the 33mm of the VEGATUB so 6mm difference and longer, instead of 7mm the other way).

Although the shape of the VEGATUB and your comment make me think this should recess the lens, rather than extend it - though I'm not sure.

MattKing · Jul 20, 2019

Show us the lens mount you already have.
I was thinking you would mount the existing mount to the enlarger, then mount the extension tube to the existing mount and then mount the lens to the other end of the tube.

Mike Chalmers · Jul 21, 2019

MattKing said:
Show us the lens mount you already have.

Here you go, boss.

This makes me think, as I think you said, the VEGATUB 39 will recess the lens upward, so it's high enough to keep it away from the negative because otherwise it would likely collide.

Can you tell is this lens mount (SIRIOPLA 39) uses a retaining ring? I'm not sure how to unmount the lens (as if I was going to swap the lens out), so any advice would be helpful as I don't want to start removing screws that I shouldn't. I'm wondering if it does use a retaining ring, if I can use it on with the 105mm (as both have 39mm thread) or if it's just a screw in anyway and no ring needed. It does not seem to want to unscrew and I don't want to force it and break something and looks like a retaining ring may be on the back.

I found this online which basically illustrates what I mean about the lens being recessed in / higher:

John51 · Jul 21, 2019

The SIRIOTUB is for 50mm. The SIRIOPLA is for 80mm and up.

MattKing · Jul 21, 2019

John51 said:
The SIRIOTUB is for 50mm. The SIRIOPLA is for 80mm and up.

As I understand it, the SIRIOPLA is for 80mm through 100mm, and the VEGATUB is designed for 105mm and up - but I'm always at least a bit confused when it comes to Durst parts.
Which means you (Mike Chalmers - the OP) have the 80mm lens on an incorrect mount - or at least a not-optimal mount.
That mount (the SIRIOPLA) may work with the 80mm lens if you limit the range of magnifications.
And the SIRIOPLA may work with the 105mm lens if you limit the range of magnifications.
By the way, just so the OP understands - while the "tub" in the SIRIOTUB goes into the head of the enlarger, and moves the lens closer to the negative, the "tub" in the VEGATUB extends away from the head of the enlarger, and moves the lens farther from the negative.
As for your question about the retaining ring, I can't tell whether the threaded ring on the mount shown is permanently part of the mount or whether it will come loose when you unscrew the lens. Try unscrewing the lens to find out.

Mike Chalmers · Jul 21, 2019

John51 said:
The SIRIOTUB is for 50mm. The SIRIOPLA is for 80mm and up.

Yeah, until - as Matt says - the 100mm and above range, which is what th VEGATUB is designed for.

MattKing said:
Which means you (Mike Chalmers - the OP) have the 80mm lens on an incorrect mount - or at least a not-optimal mount.

I don't have an 80mm - in the pics is 50mm - and I have 105mm on the way.

MattKing said:
And the SIRIOPLA may work with the 105mm lens if you limit the range of magnifications.

I was wondering if I could get it to work at the range I want, negating the need for the VEGATUB.. The two sizes I most want for now are roughly 10" x 12" and 5" x 6". I'd like to see how this goes when the 105 arrives. However...

MattKing said:
As for your question about the retaining ring, I can't tell whether the threaded ring on the mount shown is permanently part of the mount or whether it will come loose when you unscrew the lens. Try unscrewing the lens to find out.

I can get the rear lens off, but still can't get the main lens part off. I don't want to force it as I can't help but use the aperture ring (s) when turning. It seems like it should just unscrew but I'm not managing so far.

MattKing · Jul 21, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
I don't have an 80mm - in the pics is 50mm - and I have 105mm on the way.

Oops - sorry. I have been looking at too many photos of lens mounts. Does the enlarger work with a 35mm negative and that lens and mount?

Mike Chalmers · Jul 21, 2019

MattKing said:
Oops - sorry. I have been looking at too many photos of lens mounts. Does the enlarger work with a 35mm negative and that lens and mount?

Ha! No problem.
Yeah the SIRIOPLA and the 50mm I have is in a 35mm setup, which is how I bought it from a guy that made many prints. I've not printed anything myself, so I'm just assuming it works in this setup, but it would be crazy if it didn't.

When I got it I projected a 35mm through it onto the base board to check everything was working and all seemed fine and I focussed on the grain and did a timed exposure and all worked well so I don't know why it shouldn't.

MattKing · Jul 21, 2019

See the photo I've uploaded below, which is a copy of one you uploaded earlier, to which I've added some cyan and red markings.
The screwhead I have circled in red may have been added to keep the lens from turning in the threads. Try taking it and any other similarly located screw out.
The black area I have marked in cyan may be the retaining ring, or it may be a part of the mount - I can't tell.

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