Leica made in Germany vs. in Canada - value

[RezaLoghme]

The 35mm F1.4 Summilux with eyes, made in Canada, is selling at bank breaking prices lately on the used market these days (like $10K or thereabouts). I don't know if that's because it's Canadian and rare, or due to something else, such as rarity combined with its indubitable superb quality. I've never seen a German-made version of this lens.

Maybe important to remember that the creator of many great Leica lenses, Dr Walter Maldner, moved to Canada and actually became a Canadian citizen. So from that perspective, anything Canada-made should be more valuable than items made in provincial Wetzler.

 

[dave olson]

Irwin Putts stated that there is no difference between Leica products from Canada vers Germany. As people have said, without the M4-2 there would not have been a Leica.

 

[chuckroast]

Irwin Putts stated that there is no difference between Leica products from Canada vers Germany. As people have said, without the M4-2 there would not have been a Leica.

While that's true, the construction materials and methods used with cameras up to- and including the M4 used brass rather than steel or zinc found in the film models thereafter whether made in Canada or Wetzlar. Even the M5 has a pretty hefty "metal alloy" that is subjectively heftier than the M4-2 and following models.

Up through the M5, these cameras were all handmade in Wezlar. After that, Leica introduced steel gears and other more "mass produced" (relatively) parts to keep costs down, though the later cameras were still hand assembled and calibrated. I have read that even the Canadian built cameras went to Wezlar for final assmbly and calibration, though I have been unable to confirm this.

Does it make a difference? It depends whom you believe. The legacy film cameras have a reputation of being "smoother" to operate than the later ones though this is very much subjective. It's hard to know whether the older stuff is smoother only because it's older and that parts have worn in more completely. In my direct observation, my own 1961 M2 is smoother to advance than a just-serviced M4-P I played with in a store. Then again, it feels smoother (to me) than my late 1960s M4.

In no case are any of these cameras poorly built or badly engineered. With the exception of the early M6 meter debacle and some of the electronics issues of the M7s, Leica M bodies have always been top tier, regardless of model or construction methods.

 

[RezaLoghme]

While that's true, the construction materials and methods used with cameras up to- and including the M4 used brass rather than steel or zinc found in the film models thereafter whether made in Canada or Wetzlar. Even the M5 has a pretty hefty "metal alloy" that is subjectively heftier than the M4-2 and following models.

Up through the M5, these cameras were all handmade in Wezlar. After that, Leica introduced steel gears and other more "mass produced" (relatively) parts to keep costs down, though the later cameras were still hand assembled and calibrated. I have read that even the Canadian built cameras went to Wezlar for final assmbly and calibration, though I have been unable to confirm this.

Does it make a difference? It depends whom you believe. The legacy film cameras have a reputation of being "smoother" to operate than the later ones though this is very much subjective. It's hard to know whether the older stuff is smoother only because it's older and that parts have worn in more completely. In my direct observation, my own 1961 M2 is smoother to advance than a just-serviced M4-P I played with in a store. Then again, it feels smoother (to me) than my late 1960s M4.

In no case are any of these cameras poorly built or badly engineered. With the exception of the early M6 meter debacle and some of the electronics issues of the M7s, Leica M bodies have always been top tier, regardless of model or construction methods.

Thats a new one - I thought the traditional "brass vs steel gears" story ends already with the M2, if not the M4. Just checked the usual forums and there is a wonderful never ending debate about those magic gears and whether the M4-P or M4-2 was the first with the dreadful steel gears. YMMV.

The "metal alloy" you are referring to is probably the brass top and bottom plate. Most M4-Ps had zinc components. M6 too (hence the bubbling on earlier models).

That gears of "older" cameras are smoother - well a 1969 M4 and a 1961 M2 almost of the same age now...


So, lots of urban legends, things one loves to believe.

 

[wiltw]

Stock market these days is 99% speculation. It has nothing to do with state of economies or any industries as once known. Just keep moving money and never look back.

There has always been lots of speculation in stock price. 40 years ago, I was in an industry struggling as the #2 player in the market...my peers at work and I suddenly noticed that the #1 player (our fierce competition) stock price was down 25%. We knew our industry, we knew our competition (and how we fared against them in winning business), so we thought it a great opportunity to personally benefit by buying our competitor's stock at a 25% discount...after we did, it went down to 50% of its start value, and it took over two years to recover our investment and cash out at a break-even from our original speculation. IOW, the market speculated our competition stock price even further downward, even though we had no reason to be bearish about our #1 competitor (nor the stock market in general)

 

[GregY]

Thats a new one - I thought the traditional "brass vs steel gears" story ends already with the M2, if not the M4. Just checked the usual forums and there is a wonderful never ending debate about those magic gears and whether the M4-P or M4-2 was the first with the dreadful steel gears. YMMV.

The "metal alloy" you are referring to is probably the brass top and bottom plate. Most M4-Ps had zinc components. M6 too (hence the bubbling on earlier models).

That gears of "older" cameras are smoother - well a 1969 M4 and a 1961 M2 almost of the same age now...


So, lots of urban legends, things one loves to believe.

Steel gears came in w the M4-2 in '77?..... to work with the M4-2 winder.
The late M4s (black chrome) made it Canada are more similar to the Wetzlar M4s

 

[GregY]

Maybe important to remember that the creator of many great Leica lenses, Dr Walter Maldner, moved to Canada and actually became a Canadian citizen. So from that perspective, anything Canada-made should be more valuable than items made in provincial Wetzler.

Mandler
Reza, ultimately it's the product itself that establishes the value. An M4-2 or M4-P will never match an M4 in quality or value. Things like the gold M4-2.....on a mechanical level...are still an M4-2 (unlike the preceding models)....they're collectibles not 'real' cameras.

 

[beemermark]

Stock market these days is 99% speculation. It has nothing to do with state of economies or any industries as once known. Just keep moving money and never look back.

Glad you’re not my financial adviy

 

[chuckroast]

There has always been lots of speculation in stock price. 40 years ago, I was in an industry struggling as the #2 player in the market...my peers at work and I suddenly noticed that the #1 player (our fierce competition) stock price was down 25%. We knew our industry, we knew our competition (and how we fared against them in winning business), so we thought it a great opportunity to personally benefit by buying our competitor's stock at a 25% discount...after we did, it went down to 50% of its start value, and it took over two years to recover our investment and cash out at a break-even from our original speculation. IOW, the market speculated our competition stock price even further downward, even though we had no reason to be bearish about our #1 competitor (nor the stock market in general)

Traders speculate, investors don't. Both are needed for liquidity and stability respectively.

 

[Radost]

It depends. Germany will always be more valuable than Canada and Portugal. But quality and value does not matter.

m3 is the best Quality camera and worst sustain value.

 

[chuckroast]

Glad you’re not my financial adviy

There is a sense that this is true because of the ability of countries to print fiat currency at will, which drives inflation and upward pricing.

For example, an M4 sold new for between $500-ish in the 1970s would command an equivalent of about $3500 today. You get a sense of how well these have held their value when clean M4s sell for upward of $2500.

But that's not the whole story. The true value of something is what people will pay for it, driven by the demand viz the supply. That's how Leica gets over $6000 USD for a new M-A (the closest camera to an old M4). Leica figured out how to turn their stuff in Veblen Goods that are markers of affluence, thereby morphing into a lifestyle brand. People will pay those nosebleed prices just to "be in the Leica club". It gives them a sense of exclusivity.

In and of itself, this isn't speculation, it's social marking. BUT ... some/many people (and me) will buy relatively rare items like a pristine M4, M5, Visoflex, etc. on the speculative assumption that we can use it and either break even on the way out or even make money.

The problem with that theory is that I never want to sell my Leicas ;( It's captured inventory.

In general, if markets are honest and transparent, they are very efficient at pricing things based pretty much on the buying power of the currency in question maped onto the supply/demand curve. This all goes to hades in a handcart when there is either fraud or someone starts howling about "unfair pricing" and gets someone - usually the government - to interfere with market pricing dynamics.

 

[MattKing]

Moderator hat on:
Further discussion along this line - stock markets/fraud/currencies/government interference is outside the ambit of Photrio, and will be deleted and/or get the thread shut down.
Hat off.

 

[chuckroast]

Moderator hat on:
Further discussion along this line - stock markets/fraud/currencies/government interference is outside the ambit of Photrio, and will be deleted and/or get the thread shut down.
Hat off.

Noted, with apologies.

Now returning to discussions of prewash and stand development ...

 

[MattKing]

Noted, with apologies.

Now returning to discussions of prewash and stand development ...

The market price and availability of camera and darkroom stuff is an absolutely appropriate subject for Photrio!

 

[wiltw]

Traders speculate, investors don't. Both are needed for liquidity and stability respectively.

One might say that investors throw in their money in the HOPES that their investment grows per the stories told to them by the company officers or investment advisors...ask those who 'invested' in Theranos But so do speculators.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

An M4-2 or M4-P will never match an M4 in quality or value.

Based on what? What is "quality?" Go ahead, define it. What is "Value?" The selling price for a used body? The cost per exposure for 100,000 exposures?

 

[chuckroast]

The market price and availability of camera and darkroom stuff is an absolutely appropriate subject for Photrio!

Yes, but disussing price and availability without the context of market behavior and things that affect it, is kind of pointless.

Best for me to sit this one out

 

[GregY]

Based on what? What is "quality?" Go ahead, define it. What is "Value?" The selling price for a used body? The cost per exposure for 100,000 exposures?

M2,M3,M4 were bench assembled and are much smoother in operation than 4-2/4P.... in general they're preferred.
It's similar to guitars..... Martins in the dark age of the '70s with huge production # or Fenders.... pre/post CBS acquisition. Doesn't make them less as simple tools....... but there is a build quality difference.

 

[GregY]

The 35mm F1.4 Summilux with eyes, made in Canada, is selling at bank breaking prices lately on the used market these days (like $10K or thereabouts). I don't know if that's because it's Canadian and rare, or due to something else, such as rarity combined with its indubitable superb quality. I've never seen a German-made version of this lens.

The steelrim Summilux of the '60s was only made in Canada.... With or without goggles...the price is eyewatering.
(12,000 € or so)

 

[MattKing]

Best for me to sit this one out

Yep.
Unless you want to restrict your attention to factors that are very specific to photography - e.g. specific material shortages or particular businesses such as Tetenal that go under.

 

[Franklee]

Remember that you can have the less-flaring MP finder installed into your M6. And probably the others as well (not sure, ask a repair person like Youxin Ye or Don Goldberg). It may be that adding a $500-ish (again, I don't follow prices and it's been years) into a $1500 body doesn't make sense versus putting into a $3000 M6 and essentially being "state of the art" like a $4-5000 MP. Those are all imaginary prices.

 

[RezaLoghme]

The price of things, the value....
Between the different M4 versions there is a price bandwidth of maybe 1000$. Does it matter, in the larger scheme of things?

 

[rulnacco]

To sort of comment on the original post: with Leica gear there seems to be some perception (which may not be reflected at all in actual sales prices) that German-made cameras and lenses are somehow superior to those made in Canada. However, the expert consensus appears to hold that there really is no difference in the quality of production between either country, with possibly one exception: in some of my recent reading on the subject, evidence has been provided that early 50 Summicron V4s made in Canada (with the "beaver tail" focusing tab) had a plastic part controlling the movement of the aperture blades which can occasionally give out. It seems that later, German-made Summicrons switched that to a metal part which is apparently far more durable. I do know also that the V4 35 Summicron was at one time made with a plastic internal lens tube which can break (I've personally seen one lens that happened to, and have seen photos of others on the Web) which was apparently upgraded to metal; however, as I don't own one of those and have never sought to buy one I don't know if that had anything at all to do with Canadian vs. German production.

Otherwise, I'd think there's little at all difference in value between Canadian-made and German-made Leica gear, and much more would depend on the nature and model of the camera/lens itself and the condition thereof.

 

[RezaLoghme]

As Leica has been present in Canada and Portugal for a long time, its a bit unfair to believe that Wetzlar- or Solms-made products are "better". We are talking about items older than 40, 50 years; their today's condition and performance will depend on many variables.

 

[Don_ih]

As Leica has been present in Canada and Portugal for a long time

Not much Leica stuff made in Canada, anymore. Some lens elements for some lens were said to be made in the Elcan (E. Leitz Canada) plant, but I'm not sure that's still the case. They generally make other stuff (like rifle scopes).

Elcan is no longer owned by Leitz. (Just looked it up.)