Learning from Master Platinum Printer Irving Penn

Roses

A
Roses

  • 2
  • 0
  • 72
Rebel

A
Rebel

  • 4
  • 2
  • 90
Watch That First Step

A
Watch That First Step

  • 1
  • 0
  • 64
Barn Curves

A
Barn Curves

  • 2
  • 1
  • 58
Columbus Architectural Detail

A
Columbus Architectural Detail

  • 4
  • 2
  • 63

Forum statistics

Threads
197,488
Messages
2,759,844
Members
99,515
Latest member
falc
Recent bookmarks
1

Davec101

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2005
Messages
1,216
Location
Cambridge, U
Format
Large Format
(I posted a version of thread on my blog, however I wanted to post it here also for more of an open dialogue with other contemporary hybrid printmakers.)

Irving Penn was one the finest platinum printers of recent times and created some of the most exquisite, valuable and sort after platinum prints. He was self taught and obsessive about this particular alternative photographic printing process, trying all manner of papers, combinations and mixes of platinum/palladium and even Iridium metals. He is well respected within photographic community first and foremost for being a great photographer, however he is also championed as leading the revival of the platinum printing process in the late 1960’s/70’s since becoming dormant for over 50 years.

From reading around the subject, the reason for Penn taking up the platinum printing process was in part due to the fact after taking so much time, care and attention in creating images in the studio and darkroom, once printed in the pages of Vogue and other magazines they would lose a lot of the beauty and subtlety of the original negatives/prints. He wanted to somehow take back his images and ‘transform them from being a thing suitable for reproduction into something entirely different, something beautiful in itself’ (Conversation with Penn and Greenough, 14 January 2003). Always testing and pushing his technique further and allowing chance and fortuitous discoveries to occur, in the late 1980’s he used a modified banquet camera (12x20 inch) to photographic his own drawings which he would later paint over and sometimes mix in sand to add greater texture. The book ‘Platinum Prints’ published by Yale University Press in 2005 has an interesting and well written essay by Sarah Greenough that goes into great detail regarding Penn’s printing process. Although it is largely second hand information I can well believe it to be accurate. I came across text actually written by Penn for an exhibition catalogue in 1980 the other day, shown below, although it tells us nothing new it was interesting to read him describe his technique is his own words.

own+words.jpg

I think there is probably a lot we still don’t know about his printing method, some printers I have come across refrain from divulging their techniques, which I am fine with as some advances are hard won, indeed Penn once stated that he was ‘jealous’ of sharing his pleasure with anyone.(quoted from ‘The stranger behind the camera: Photographs and Art work by Irving Penn,’Vogue November 2004) However there are other printers that I have come across that are very open with their advances, people that immediately spring to mind who have generously helped my development as a printer include Mike Ware and Ian Leake.

Renowned platinum printer Stan Klimek, who has printed some of the finest contemporary platinum prints I have ever seen, states in Dick Arentz book on platinum printing that creating a perfect platinum print is like ‘aiming at a moving target’ which is definitely the case these days. With materials such as paper being discontinued all the time or modified to suit other printmaking techniques (buffering of paper with calcium carbonate comes to mind) new papers/transparency films have to be found and tested and new methods of paper/negative preparation and processing techniques have to be devised and adapted. This is why ultimately I believe as more products people once relied on to create platinum prints are discontinued or changed hybrid techniques will continue to expand and why websites such as these are this are essential to any future development.

Anyway I digress! Coming back to Penn, If we look at the existing information on Penn’s technique what can modern day platinum printers learn from it ?Well for a start we know he double coated onto paper such as BFK Rives, Bienfang, Arches and Strathmore. Penn obviously did this for a reason and could see significant benefits from this practice, further to this he sometimes made the first coating with platinum and the second with palladium or Iridium, the later I have never come across, has anyone else? What hands on experience have others had with double coating contemporary papers such as Platine, Lana Aquarelle, Bergger COT-320,BFK Rives and alternating with coats of platinum and palladium.

Penn states that he used ‘2 or more negatives of varying contrast to make a single print.’ He was able to register them perfectly by mounting his printing paper onto aluminium using a bond called Surlyn created by Dupont. The reason being to endure the ‘repeating wettings and dryings with little change to the dimension’ of the paper which was required for printing and exposing multiple negatives (A modified version of this was devised by Richard Sullivan) Using a digital negative system approach in theory we should be able to replicate this without the use of multiple negatives and successive exposures. As is well known for any given image, modern day photographers can take a series of two digital exposures and combine to create one image, one exposed for the shadows and one for the highlights, then combine them via Photoshop to create an image of ‘High Dynamic Range’ (HDR), this HDR image could then be output via inkjet printer/imagesetter. (A similar approach could be used when scanning film of either two negatives or even one). I am not a fan of HDR images per say, as I find them overly surreal, however if used in moderation it should work the same as using multiple negatives, shouldn’t it?. This is my theory, of course the very act of making successive exposures to multiple negatives of varying contrast could play a significant part, much like the layering of a pigment or gum print, has anyone researched this or established the difference ? I aim to test this theory over the next few weeks by using multiple negatives/exposures versus just a single HDR digital negative with a single exposure to see if there is much of a difference. At the moment for some images I initially create 4 separate negatives each with a slightly different correction curve that I have developed and modified over the years which i then print all together on one sheet, I then examine the final dried down print and on occasion I combine certain image characteristics that I like of each of the 4 negatives to create one final negative. Probably overly elaborate but it’s the way I like to work.

Another issue is the exposure system used, Penn states that they ranged 'from 2 mins to 2 hours with a single strong Xenon light' I know forum member Sandy King has done significant research into the area of uv exposure systems and it is one that I have overlooked but need to follow up (further information can be found here, http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Light/light.html )

A final question….If Penn were alive today and creating platinum prints with the proficiency of his early youth, would he still be creating multiple negatives with successive exposures in the darkroom or would he embracing hybrid techniques such as digital negative creation to achieve the same results?

To conclude, this post has been rather longer than I intended it to be, however I hope others find it thought provoking.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bob Carnie

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Messages
7,734
Location
toronto
Format
Med. Format RF
An interesting tidbit to add.

Two Penn prints from the worker series were in my shop this summer. They were taken out of their frames to be auctioned in England.

The carrier was a sheet of aluminum, that was registered punched for multiple printing , the paper was on both sides of the aluminum.
They were from a numbered series 1-5 .
On the back surface were the notes of the different hits applied and Penn's signature.
The photographer had bought them for 9500 canadian 10 years ago , his take from the auction was 150000 canadian give or take a few pennies. A simply amazing investment.

They were lovely prints around 16x20 size and absolutely multiple hit prints.

I believe he would be using multiple hit prints from digital negatives today, and his working methods are the reason I am moving to multiple hit alternative printing.
 

PVia

Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2006
Messages
1,058
Location
Pasadena, CA
Format
Multi Format
Dave,

The double coating referred to in the Arentz book is for two single coats applied in sequence, and then one exposure.

From what I understand, much of Penn's multi-coat work used a single coat with a single exposure, and repeated that multiple times with different negatives attuned to specific tonalities.

Thank you so much for your post...! I love reading everything I can about my favorite photographer.
 
OP
OP
Davec101

Davec101

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2005
Messages
1,216
Location
Cambridge, U
Format
Large Format
Dave,

The double coating referred to in the Arentz book is for two single coats applied in sequence, and then one exposure.

From what I understand, much of Penn's multi-coat work used a single coat with a single exposure, and repeated that multiple times with different negatives attuned to specific tonalities.

Thank you so much for your post...! I love reading everything I can about my favorite photographer.

Okay well if this is the case then we are talking about a different procedure/workflow which would involve the techniques devised by Richard Sullivan i.e. bonding printing paper to aluminium with fusion 4000 and then using the Penn approach of multiple coatings/exposures. Therefore it might be worthwhile investing in a large hot press to bond the paper to the aluminium like those found here http://www.hotpress.co.uk/ (also see attached) the key for me is being able to detach the print safely at the end of these multiple exposures/developments from the aluminium with no residue from the bond being left. This would be a useful method of printing large gum over platinum prints as well as tri-gums. I will have to investigate further with Richard Sullivan, this maybe the method adopted by Kenro Izu for his cyanotype over platinum prints, which are truly stunning prints.

In terms of straight platinum printing one has to ask are benefits are significant enough to justify the extra work/costs involved? I aim to try and get some density readings off some of the Penn prints in the next couple of weeks. Overall most platinum printers are getting dmax’s in the region of 1.4.to 1.6 (without waxing etc..) so if they are in that region it may not be worth it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Loris Medici

Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Messages
1,154
Location
Istanbul, Tu
Format
Multi Format
I don't think it's necessary to use double coating and/or multiple printings with different negatives to get good results. (Highly depends on your perception of "good", of course...) Especially so if you're using digital negatives, and want to print big images...
 
OP
OP
Davec101

Davec101

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2005
Messages
1,216
Location
Cambridge, U
Format
Large Format
I don't think it's necessary to use double coating and/or multiple printings with different negatives to get good results. (Highly depends on your perception of "good", of course...) Especially so if you're using digital negatives, and want to print big images...

You might be correct, thats what i was kind of alluding to in the OP in that we should be able with the digital negative approach achieve 'as good as' the multiple printing method of Penn's, although he would have been doing analogue enlargements which may be superior the our digital counterparts. He would have had the time and resources to achieve excellent contact print enlargements, i believe he had a team of people making these multiple negatives from what i am told.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ben Altman

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
205
Location
Ithaca, NY a
Format
Large Format
I've seen some of the platinum prints Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee have had made. They are very good. Michael claims dMax over 2.0. Below are some snips from his web site:

"...made at the Salto Platinum Atelier in Belgium... ....Paulas prints are printed on translucent handmade Japanese Taizan paper 23" x 29". Michaels prints are printed on Arches Platine paper and are one meter wide15" x 39"... ...To make these prints our original negatives are scanned; then five enlarged digital negatives made from each one are printed in register with multiple exposuresa lengthy and arduous process."

Apparently they use imagesetter negatives and some fancy image processing program - i.e. not Photoshop.

I'm guessing that the process involves building up density in dark areas with multiple coatings and long exposures using negatives that mask off the lighter areas, then exposing mid and light tones with their own negatives - and maybe changes in sensitizer. These prints were not mounted on aluminum as a final product, though they may have been during the process. Japanese papers tend to expand quite a lot when wet, so they must have some clever technique to keep things in register.

My guess is that in Penn's method at least, the exposure of each successive cycle was adjusted after inspection of the results of the previous one. Maybe there's a way to do a couple of coat-and-expose cycles without intermediate processing, with the profiling control that digital negatives give - perhaps that's the Salto method. My question with ink-jet negatives is whether they can mask light areas well enough.

I also looked at a Penn print at MoMA recently. With it and the Salto prints I had a slight sense that, although the blacks are very black, there is not a lot of dark detail in the prints. That could be what was in the original negative, or the printer's preference, or my misperception...

A density reading off a Penn print would be interesting.

Ben
 
OP
OP
Davec101

Davec101

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2005
Messages
1,216
Location
Cambridge, U
Format
Large Format
I've seen some of the platinum prints Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee have had made. They are very good. Michael claims dMax over 2.0. Below are some snips from his web site:

"...made at the Salto Platinum Atelier in Belgium... ....Paula’s prints are printed on translucent handmade Japanese Taizan paper 23" x 29". Michael’s prints are printed on Arches Platine paper and are one meter wide—15" x 39"... ...To make these prints our original negatives are scanned; then five enlarged digital negatives made from each one are printed in register with multiple exposures—a lengthy and arduous process."

Apparently they use imagesetter negatives and some fancy image processing program - i.e. not Photoshop.

I'm guessing that the process involves building up density in dark areas with multiple coatings and long exposures using negatives that mask off the lighter areas, then exposing mid and light tones with their own negatives - and maybe changes in sensitizer. These prints were not mounted on aluminum as a final product, though they may have been during the process. Japanese papers tend to expand quite a lot when wet, so they must have some clever technique to keep things in register.

My guess is that in Penn's method at least, the exposure of each successive cycle was adjusted after inspection of the results of the previous one. Maybe there's a way to do a couple of coat-and-expose cycles without intermediate processing, with the profiling control that digital negatives give - perhaps that's the Salto method. My question with ink-jet negatives is whether they can mask light areas well enough.

I also looked at a Penn print at MoMA recently. With it and the Salto prints I had a slight sense that, although the blacks are very black, there is not a lot of dark detail in the prints. That could be what was in the original negative, or the printer's preference, or my misperception...

A density reading off a Penn print would be interesting.

Ben

Hi Ben

Yes I am aware of the Salto prints that you refer to, your guess is as good as mine at this stage, the masking idea you mention sounds interesting. They printed a wonderful series of Platinum prints of Herbert Ponting images http://www.ponting-portfolio.com/ that was commisioned by Scott Polar Research Institute which is part fo the University of Cambridge(my home town) and they should recieve a copy of it for viewing sometime which i look forward to seeing.

I have just purchased a dry mount press similar to the one in my previous post so i will be attempting to test the idea of multiple exposures/developments of platinum/palladium salts with the paper bonded to aluminium. If I dont see any significant gains it should be useful for gum over platinum, tri gum prints instead.

In relation to testing the density of one of Penn's platinum prints the V&A print room do the 'Harlequin Dress' dress shown below :

Irving%20Penn,%20HarlequinDress%201950.jpg

The bottom left hand corner seems to me to the best place to take a dmax reading without damaging the print. At the moment i am borrowing a friends old analogue densistometer which does not require a lot of pressure to get an accurate reading so i hope they dont get to upset about it, we shall see, they may not even let me attempt to get near it with a meter, judging by what one sold for in 2006 and that was before he sadly passed away! http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=4696333
 

R Shaffer

Member
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
436
Location
Santa Cruz,
Format
Multi Format
I find this to be a fascinating thread. However, I'm not sure that knowing what the D-max is really informs us about reasons for going through all the effort to make multiple exposures.

While pd/pt is known for it's ability to separate the delicate highlights the prints can look flat. This may be/is the artist' intention and certainly conveys a particular emotion. The example of the harlequin dress is fabulous, but I can't see that image having the same impact if it were flat.

At the same time, I would think that the multiple printings technique would also provide the opportunity to get much better midtone separation and contrast.

For example, wasn't that the goal of Mortensons Gamma Infinity, to get that subtle midtone separation.
 

Bob Carnie

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Messages
7,734
Location
toronto
Format
Med. Format RF
I think Ray you are right, the reason for multiple registration IMHO would be for attacking certain areas of a print an leaving behind a second, third , fourth imprint or effect that a single pass would not be able to do.

Split printing silver is a perfect example where one uses three differnent filters , and multiple hits to areas to set the tone.
For example highlight detail can be definately improved with a hit of grade 5 filter which would seem counterintuitive. But what happens within the highlights there are dark areas or detail and with this second hit of five those darker areas alone are hugely impacted and give the viewer more apparent detail in the highlight region of the film.
Years ago for cibachrome we would not only make a high light mask to tone down the details, but as well when making this mask we would use a highlight protector positive mask in register with the original to step down the greying effect of the contrast reducing mask. Otherwise dulled flat highlights.

So it can work both ways and I am sure that is what Mr Penn was trying to achieve in his multiple hit prints.
I find this to be a fascinating thread. However, I'm not sure that knowing what the D-max is really informs us about reasons for going through all the effort to make multiple exposures.

While pd/pt is known for it's ability to separate the delicate highlights the prints can look flat. This may be/is the artist' intention and certainly conveys a particular emotion. The example of the harlequin dress is fabulous, but I can't see that image having the same impact if it were flat.

At the same time, I would think that the multiple printings technique would also provide the opportunity to get much better midtone separation and contrast.

For example, wasn't that the goal of Mortensons Gamma Infinity, to get that subtle midtone separation.
 

sanking

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2003
Messages
5,437
Location
Greenville,
Format
Large Format
At the same time, I would think that the multiple printings technique would also provide the opportunity to get much better midtone separation and contrast.

If getting good mid-tone separation and overal contrast was the goal, which I belive was the case for Penn since it is very difficult to achieve this with one printing when printing pt/pd with wet processed negatives, this could be achieved with tonal controls in Photoshop and then printing with digital negatives, and does not require multiple hits.

A more interesting use of multiple hits is when you use one color for the shadows and another for the highlights, to give an effect similar to split toning with QTR. This can be very effective with gum and carbon transfer printing using different color pigments/tissues. Gordon Chapple, who died tragically in a flash flood in a slot canyon in Utah, used a multiple hit process for both contrast control and to give a split tone to his prints, which were on white melinex. But he needed to make multiple hits for contrast control because of the limitations of the in-camera negatives he worked with and I am positive that he would have been able to achieve the same contrast control with in Photoshop and printing with digital negatives. But the split toning could only be achieved with multiple hits, though one would necessarily need different negatives for this in carbon as it is possible to control contrast with the sensitizer. Same would be true of gum.

Sandy
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP
Davec101

Davec101

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2005
Messages
1,216
Location
Cambridge, U
Format
Large Format
If getting good mid-tone separation and overal contrast was the goal, which I belive was the case for Penn since it is very difficult to achieve this with one printing when printing pt/pd with wet processed negatives, this could be achieved with tonal controls in Photoshop and then printing with digital negatives, and does not require multiple hits.

A more interesting use of multiple hits is when you use one color for the shadows and another for the highlights, to give an effect similar to split toning with QTR. This can be very effective with gum and carbon transfer printing using different color pigments/tissues. Gordon Chapple, who died tragically in a flash flood in a slot canyon in Utah, used a multiple hit process for both contrast control and to give a split tone to his prints, which were on white melinex. But he needed to make multiple hits for contrast control because of the limitations of the in-camera negatives he worked with and I am positive that he would have been able to achieve the same contrast control with in Photoshop and printing with digital negatives. But the split toning could only be achieved with multiple hits, though one would necessarily need different negatives for this in carbon as it is possible to control contrast with the sensitizer. Same would be true of gum.

Sandy

I was hoping the thread would evolve into its current state, personally I want to better understand what made some of Penn’s platinum prints great. Ron makes a good point regarding dmax which I failed to point out (although out of interest I would like to see what dmax he was getting on that particular print.) When I viewed the Camel print recently, which I compared to the 2005 book reproduction on my blog (shown below), I was struck by the sense of the prints three dimensionality, a print which did not rely heavily on a high maximum density for effect. Moreover as Ron and Sandy state it was more about tonal separation and contrast.

ip+2.jpg

So what seems to be coming through is we should be able to achieve a similar effect through a single exposure and a well crafted digital negative as opposed to a multiple hit print.

Sandy what’s you take on bonding paper to aluminium to ensure dimensional stability for multiple hit processes such as gum over platinum and tri-gum?

Digressing slightly, what also interests me is what some of the finest contemporary platinum printers are using for negative output such as Stan Klimek. He created one of the first platinum prints I fell in love with some time ago when he printed over 1400 platinum prints for a Sally Mann publication/Livres d'Artistes published by 21st Editions, shown below :

sally.jpg


From a lecture he gave last year he said the following

'One of the things that annoyed me with the Imagesetter was that even though you were working with a stochastic or random dot output, you could see under careful inspection with a loupe on the platinum print in the highlights its random but still mechanical pattern. The Lightjet does not show any digital artifacts at all in the print period. Also, the grain from the 35mm Tri-X film was reinterpreted faithfully. The output is expensive, $25.00 for an 8X10 and it is a bit slower due to the Ilfoclear base. We did the Bruce Davidson book with the Lightjet, the delicate snow scenes and flesh tones are beautiful'

Now not everyone can afford lightjet negatives but its something I am interested in learning more about.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bob Carnie

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Messages
7,734
Location
toronto
Format
Med. Format RF
Digressing slightly, what also interests me is what some of the finest contemporary platinum printers are using for negative output such as Stan Klimek. He created one of the first platinum prints I fell in love with some time ago when he printed over 1400 platinum prints for a Sally Mann publication/Livres d'Artistes published by 21st Editions, shown below :




From a lecture he gave last year he said the following

'One of the things that annoyed me with the Imagesetter was that even though you were working with a stochastic or random dot output, you could see under careful inspection with a loupe on the platinum print in the highlights its random but still mechanical pattern. The Lightjet does not show any digital artifacts at all in the print period. Also, the grain from the 35mm Tri-X film was reinterpreted faithfully. The output is expensive, $25.00 for an 8X10 and it is a bit slower due to the Ilfoclear base. We did the Bruce Davidson book with the Lightjet, the delicate snow scenes and flesh tones are beautiful'

Now not everyone can afford lightjet negatives but its something I am interested in learning more about.



This is very interesting as I have a laser printer *Lambda*and indeed have considered the use of fujiclear as a negative, which is actually the same product as ilfoclear , not to be confused with cibaclear.
I was in a discussion with someone on APUG and they emphatically stated because of the UV blockers in fujiclear the negs were useless.
This discussion caught me off gaurd as I cannot fathom in my laymans mind how a UV coating can block out all the light as he suggests.
On a scale of 1-10 this coating would have to be incredible.
I can see it slowing down the exposure slightly but completely blocking a Nuarcs blast of light, wow.
I highly doubt the ilfoclear product is treated any differently than the fuji procuct so this gives me some hope to try the fujiclear, if not short of purchasing some ilfoclear.
In fact I have purchased rollie 1s0 25 for the laser printer , and have a friend willing to output on a image setter stocastic film as well.
I am researching this winter along with the new HP option, at least five ways to make negatives for contact printing off my laser.
I am really hoping the HP and the Lambda options are of similar quality.
 

sanking

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2003
Messages
5,437
Location
Greenville,
Format
Large Format
This is very interesting as I have a laser printer *Lambda*and indeed have considered the use of fujiclear as a negative, which is actually the same product as ilfoclear , not to be confused with cibaclear.
I was in a discussion with someone on APUG and they emphatically stated because of the UV blockers in fujiclear the negs were useless.
This discussion caught me off gaurd as I cannot fathom in my laymans mind how a UV coating can block out all the light as he suggests.
On a scale of 1-10 this coating would have to be incredible.
I can see it slowing down the exposure slightly but completely blocking a Nuarcs blast of light, wow.

UV coatings that I am familiar with (Tmax-100, white Pictorico) do not block all of the radiation to which pt/pd is sensitive but they may block enough to make exposures too long to be convient. UV blocking od log 0.9 is equivalent to three stops of exposure. Since pt/pd exposures with a NuArc are typically in the 6-10 minute range they would become 48-60 minutes with a substrate that blocks log .90 of the UV radiation. That is a lot of frying time with a NuArc.

Sandy
 
OP
OP
Davec101

Davec101

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2005
Messages
1,216
Location
Cambridge, U
Format
Large Format
Digressing slightly, what also interests me is what some of the finest contemporary platinum printers are using for negative output such as Stan Klimek. He created one of the first platinum prints I fell in love with some time ago when he printed over 1400 platinum prints for a Sally Mann publication/Livres d'Artistes published by 21st Editions, shown below :




From a lecture he gave last year he said the following

'One of the things that annoyed me with the Imagesetter was that even though you were working with a stochastic or random dot output, you could see under careful inspection with a loupe on the platinum print in the highlights its random but still mechanical pattern. The Lightjet does not show any digital artifacts at all in the print period. Also, the grain from the 35mm Tri-X film was reinterpreted faithfully. The output is expensive, $25.00 for an 8X10 and it is a bit slower due to the Ilfoclear base. We did the Bruce Davidson book with the Lightjet, the delicate snow scenes and flesh tones are beautiful'

Now not everyone can afford lightjet negatives but its something I am interested in learning more about.



This is very interesting as I have a laser printer *Lambda*and indeed have considered the use of fujiclear as a negative, which is actually the same product as ilfoclear , not to be confused with cibaclear.
I was in a discussion with someone on APUG and they emphatically stated because of the UV blockers in fujiclear the negs were useless.
This discussion caught me off gaurd as I cannot fathom in my laymans mind how a UV coating can block out all the light as he suggests.
On a scale of 1-10 this coating would have to be incredible.
I can see it slowing down the exposure slightly but completely blocking a Nuarcs blast of light, wow.
I highly doubt the ilfoclear product is treated any differently than the fuji procuct so this gives me some hope to try the fujiclear, if not short of purchasing some ilfoclear.
In fact I have purchased rollie 1s0 25 for the laser printer , and have a friend willing to output on a image setter stocastic film as well.
I am researching this winter along with the new HP option, at least five ways to make negatives for contact printing off my laser.
I am really hoping the HP and the Lambda options are of similar quality.

Hi Bob

We have a lab close to me that has a Durst Lambda, they print my 20x24" digital c-types on it with incredible fidelity and colour, nothing I have seen comes close, they print at about 400dpi. Would I be able to work with them to create digital negatives, if so what type of film would I need to purchase?
 

sanking

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2003
Messages
5,437
Location
Greenville,
Format
Large Format
Sandy whats you take on bonding paper to aluminium to ensure dimensional stability for multiple hit processes such as gum over platinum and tri-gum?

I have not done this myself but the technique definitely works. I saw some beautiful tri-color gum prints by Keith Taylor a few years ago at APIS.

http://keithtaylorphoto.com/gum.html

Sandy
 

Bob Carnie

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Messages
7,734
Location
toronto
Format
Med. Format RF
Dave
Thats how I print,at 400ppi

not sure your relationship with the owner and how willing they are to invest in a big film processor or do the one off jobs with you. You could build the film developing station yourself, and have them expose and cut and you process at home but it is a PITA.
I would be willing to communicate with them if they are interested, but some labs do not sharing info.

Rollie 1S0 25 black white. is what I am testing with, as well as your post mentions ilfoclear, which I believe is a RA4 product , they would be more likely to do that.
I asked Harmon to get me some film for this testing , but was told I had to order 23 rolls.

Wait awhile if you can as I am still testing options, I would be interested in the ilfoclear from your post (you should follow that Stan guy and ask which product ilfoclear or ciba clear. * there are still Lambda labs in the UK doing both. That roll RA4 will cost you around $5-9 hundred Can .The Ciba clear is another animal , it is really expensive but could be processed in a jobo and up until two years ago I was doing lambda Cibas.
Jeff Wall btw is the largest worldwide user of Ciba clear in the World.. little known fact.

The Rollie comes in a 42 inch by 100ft ,which I had them cut in half because my Lambda is a 30 inch model.
This Rollie roll cost me $2000.00 not cheap and you need to figure how to develop it as well. Right now I am working in large trays with HC110.
I have commisioned a large rotary, see APUG - My Jobos are on their last legs thread. This should be in operation by mid fall and I will move forward with monster film in the jobo.
If the black white film option works then this may indeed be my choice and I hope I can get more Rollie 25iso or I will need to beg Harmon to let me test their slow speed film.

All this stuff is really expensive, and we are coming out of a drastic downturn in the economy over the last couple of years , so I can only proceed when funds are available.

Dave - talk to the owner , explain your needs, and remember this production would be like a fly on a elephants ass, so try to approach from a photographic process passion , than a way for them to make money.

I work in a very funny matter, I like to test all the options , I have not made a platinum or four colour carbon since the mid 90's, 15 years later I have the gear and the clients and am trying to pull it all together. Sandy has been most generous with an open mind to lead me when I get stuck.

I anticipate by next summer I will be open for business with certain of my clients and my own projects , doing Carbon and multiple colour Gum.

Hi Bob

We have a lab close to me that has a Durst Lambda, they print my 20x24" digital c-types on it with incredible fidelity and colour, nothing I have seen comes close, they print at about 400dpi. Would I be able to work with them to create digital negatives, if so what type of film would I need to purchase?
 

Bob Carnie

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Messages
7,734
Location
toronto
Format
Med. Format RF
thanks Sandy

Is there any other types of exposing units for Carbon or Gum that would work in my applications , using a film with UV coating.
UV coatings that I am familiar with (Tmax-100, white Pictorico) do not block all of the radiation to which pt/pd is sensitive but they may block enough to make exposures too long to be convient. UV blocking od log 0.9 is equivalent to three stops of exposure. Since pt/pd exposures with a NuArc are typically in the 6-10 minute range they would become 48-60 minutes with a substrate that blocks log .90 of the UV radiation. That is a lot of frying time with a NuArc.

Sandy
 

sanking

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2003
Messages
5,437
Location
Greenville,
Format
Large Format
thanks Sandy

Is there any other types of exposing units for Carbon or Gum that would work in my applications , using a film with UV coating.

A bank of BL tubes would expose pt/pd in about the same time as a NuArc with less energy. 48" BL tubes are 40 watts so a 12 unit BL bank would use about half the power of a NuArc and put out less heat. But you would still would have to run the vacuum frame for a very long period of time.

Basically I don't think you would have much of a market for digital negatives on a substrate that blocks three stops of light. That is simply too much of a burden in printing.

Sandy
 
OP
OP
Davec101

Davec101

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2005
Messages
1,216
Location
Cambridge, U
Format
Large Format
Dave
Thats how I print,at 400ppi

not sure your relationship with the owner and how willing they are to invest in a big film processor or do the one off jobs with you. You could build the film developing station yourself, and have them expose and cut and you process at home but it is a PITA.
I would be willing to communicate with them if they are interested, but some labs do not sharing info.

Rollie 1S0 25 black white. is what I am testing with, as well as your post mentions ilfoclear, which I believe is a RA4 product , they would be more likely to do that.
I asked Harmon to get me some film for this testing , but was told I had to order 23 rolls.

Wait awhile if you can as I am still testing options, I would be interested in the ilfoclear from your post (you should follow that Stan guy and ask which product ilfoclear or ciba clear. * there are still Lambda labs in the UK doing both. That roll RA4 will cost you around $5-9 hundred Can .The Ciba clear is another animal , it is really expensive but could be processed in a jobo and up until two years ago I was doing lambda Cibas.
Jeff Wall btw is the largest worldwide user of Ciba clear in the World.. little known fact.

The Rollie comes in a 42 inch by 100ft ,which I had them cut in half because my Lambda is a 30 inch model.
This Rollie roll cost me $2000.00 not cheap and you need to figure how to develop it as well. Right now I am working in large trays with HC110.
I have commisioned a large rotary, see APUG - My Jobos are on their last legs thread. This should be in operation by mid fall and I will move forward with monster film in the jobo.
If the black white film option works then this may indeed be my choice and I hope I can get more Rollie 25iso or I will need to beg Harmon to let me test their slow speed film.

All this stuff is really expensive, and we are coming out of a drastic downturn in the economy over the last couple of years , so I can only proceed when funds are available.

Dave - talk to the owner , explain your needs, and remember this production would be like a fly on a elephants ass, so try to approach from a photographic process passion , than a way for them to make money.

I work in a very funny matter, I like to test all the options , I have not made a platinum or four colour carbon since the mid 90's, 15 years later I have the gear and the clients and am trying to pull it all together. Sandy has been most generous with an open mind to lead me when I get stuck.

I anticipate by next summer I will be open for business with certain of my clients and my own projects , doing Carbon and multiple colour Gum.


That’s great advice thanks for that, I will have a talk with them, at the moment I love the flexibility of doing everything ‘in house’ in my darkroom/lightroom. Working with a lab might be taking two steps backs to make 3 steps forward, if you know what I mean and would the significant time and investment be worth the reward of higher resolution digital negatives, maybe so , however as you are well aware having the ability to make subtly changes to the negative and then print them out within minutes is the beauty of digital negatives with the latest inkjet technology. Who knows what’s around the corner in relation to inkjet technology, undoubtedly it will get better but there must come a time when the gains become smaller and smaller. I like what HP and Angel Albarran have done and will be interesting to see whether HP follow through with the module for future large format models as well as their smaller carriage printers.
 

Bob Carnie

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Messages
7,734
Location
toronto
Format
Med. Format RF
Dave

totally understand, I am a control freak here as well and hate subbing anything out to a service provider.

I too am going to follow the HP route , our lab needs a 24 inch printer and I think I know who is going to get the order.
 

sanking

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2003
Messages
5,437
Location
Greenville,
Format
Large Format
Thats great advice thanks for that, I will have a talk with them, at the moment I love the flexibility of doing everything in house in my darkroom/lightroom. Working with a lab might be taking two steps backs to make 3 steps forward, if you know what I mean and would the significant time and investment be worth the reward of higher resolution digital negatives, maybe so , however as you are well aware having the ability to make subtly changes to the negative and then print them out within minutes is the beauty of digital negatives with the latest inkjet technology. Who knows whats around the corner in relation to inkjet technology, undoubtedly it will get better but there must come a time when the gains become smaller and smaller. I like what HP and Angel Albarran have done and will be interesting to see whether HP follow through with the module for future large format models as well as their smaller carriage printers.

My advice would be to go route of making your own digital negatives from a good photo inkjet printer. Being able to control this work in house is very important to my work flow.

Sandy
 
OP
OP
Davec101

Davec101

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2005
Messages
1,216
Location
Cambridge, U
Format
Large Format
My advice would be to go route of making your own digital negatives from a good photo inkjet printer. Being able to control this work in house is very important to my work flow.

Sandy

Thanks Sandy I agree.

It would be interesting if one could peek into the future to see what we will be using for digital negative creation in the next 5-10 years, (Hopefully I will still be about then!) It got me thinking what advance in inkjet/printing technology would digital negative users most like to be improved? HP are trying to make things simpler with a one stop solution, albeit limited to a large format users. How far can we go with inkjet technology are their still significant resolution gains to be had in the future?
 

Ben Altman

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
205
Location
Ithaca, NY a
Format
Large Format
I did some fairly simple tests on re-coating over the weekend, using my usual straight Palladium Ziatype, on Arches Platine. I started with a few swatches and saw a definite increase in dMax, about the same whether I recoated after exposure or after clearing in citric acid and washing.
So then I ran some step wedges and controls, results for dMax below:

1. Single coat, normal exposure - 1.36
2. Single coat, normal exposure, re-coat, repeat same exposure - 1.46

Controls:
3. Single coat, double exposure - 1.30
4. Double coat before exposure, normal exposure - 1.32
5. Double coat before exposure, double exposure - 1.39

Mid-tones and light tones in the prints increased in density - for example as follows for a mid-tone:

#1: 0.60, #2: 0.76, #3: 0.75, #4: 0.68, #5: 0.75

I did not have time to clear, re-coat and re-expose a step wedge, may try that next session.

So for this process at least it seems that re-coating and re-exposing can give a boost in dMax, but tones in the most of rest of the print are mostly related to exposure, with a small boost from an initial double-coat.

I guess this makes sense for Pd; I'd say the re-coating is hiding solarization in the blacks, allowing the increased exposure to give a full range of tones.

By the way, the best dMax of the day, and this is consistent with previous tests, was single coat and normal exposure on a piece of glassine... 1.5+

Measurements with Babelcolor and an I1 Pro, serviced earlier this year.

Ben
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP
Davec101

Davec101

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2005
Messages
1,216
Location
Cambridge, U
Format
Large Format
Initial Results from multilayered platinum print.

Some interesting results Ben, keep testing and posting your readings:smile:

I had some time today to investigate whether Penn’s method of multilayered platinum prints makes a significant difference to the dmax and also the overall appearance compared to a single coated platinum print.

The initial printing paper was bonded to aluminium ( this maintains dimensional stability of the paper and it does not require sizing) and then coated/exposed and developed for the first layer, once this had finally dried I then recoated with the same drop count and then re-registered the print and then exposed and developed for a second time. To my eye the final dried down multilayered platinum print has an overall richer look to it, the numbers show a difference of is around 0.17 log.

Is this significant, well I was expecting slightly more and will require further testing. I will apply another layer tomorrow to see what difference that makes. I believe with some prints Penn may have layered three times. I would expect a gum layer to make more of a difference at this stage and will test this over the next couple of weeks.


First layer dried down readings

4980130745_27119c32f3_o.jpg


Recoating for a second time

4980136115_05b1424902_o.jpg


Second layer dried down readings

4980095669_b7d823d065_o.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom