Large silver gelatin enlargements - still possible?

[alentine]

LTI Lightside in New York still does optically printed enlargements up to 50" x 84" but the mural size ones can get fairly expensive (at least to me).

Its C-Prints, good if it's Optical, not from digital file.
They make optical gelatin silver up to 24x20 inches.
Thanks MultiFormat Shooter.

 

[MultiFormat Shooter]

Its C-Prints, good if it's Optical, not from digital file.

I called them about the mural-sized prints, and was told over-the-phone, they are optically printed, not made from scans. Oops...looks like the original question about B&W...somehow I managed to miss that.

 

[alentine]

I called them about the mural-sized prints, and was told over-the-phone, they are optically printed, not made from scans. Oops...looks like the original question about B&W...somehow I managed to miss that.

Very valuable info.
Thanks MultiFormat Shooter.

 

[Ai Print]

DeVille Bobinor - superb bit of kit & a great deal cheaper than any of the automated machines that can handle paper that wide - & it can deal with FB easily which the machines can't.

I am in the process of ordering this setup, should get the full quote in a day or so, just need to make sure they can get me a 110V version of the drive motor for the wash tray.

In spending some 18 months in trying to figure out how to go bigger than 30x40” with home made rigs, this is the only thing that makes sense given how much it would cost me to make my own system anyway.

 

[AgX]

I do not even remember that thing having a motor drive, maybe it is a customized version.

Even murals should be possible in long trays without a cranked-spindle mechanism.

 

[Ai Print]

I do not even remember that thing having a motor drive, maybe it is a customized version.

Even murals should be possible in long trays without a cranked-spindle mechanism.

You use the optional motor attachment for the wash tray which is different than the other trays due to the tubes for water jets. It’s a pretty slick setup that is quite compact for the size of prints one can put out.

 

[AgX]

You seemingly got a more modern version than I know. Interesting.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

I searched for the DeVille Bobinor setup but found nothing useful. Can someone post a link?

 

[Ai Print]

You seemingly got a more modern version than I know. Interesting.

I don’t have it yet, just in the initial stages of the ordering process. The motor and water bath affair has always been part of their how to video, it just does not show up on Fotoimpex’s price sheet.

 

[Ai Print]

I search for the DeVille Bobinor setup but found nothing useful. Can someone post a link?

There is not much out there, I get the feeling it is a bit of a unicorn in the grand scheme of things. I am certainly moving toward it but to be quite honest, the evidence of increasing water scarcity across the globe has me wondering about the viability of silver printing at any size in the not so distant future.

 

[Lachlan Young]

There is not much out there, I get the feeling it is a bit of a unicorn in the grand scheme of things. I am certainly moving toward it but to be quite honest, the evidence of increasing water scarcity across the globe has me wondering about the viability of silver printing at any size in the not so distant future.

Compared to the paper industry, I suspect the totality of the photography world's water usage pales into insignificance.

Don't know if it's useful to you, but here's DeVille's website: https://deville-darkroom-com8.webnode.fr - there is an email contact somewhere in there.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I had a chance in early 2000's to set up a Black White Lab in a major LA Lab, I chose not to because of water issues that I envisioned would come down the line .

 

[Ai Print]

Compared to the paper industry, I suspect the totality of the photography world's water usage pales into insignificance.

Count on insignificance changing to significance as water becomes a lot more scarce.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Count on insignificance changing to significance as water becomes a lot more scarce.

Indeed & it's really one of the strongest cases for the Bobinoir - 20 litres a trough or a little less to set up the 50" one & with pretty decent chemical lifespan once mixed. I'd suggest forgoing the washer setup which seems rather wasteful to me in terms of water usage & instead getting a fourth trough for hypo clear & either getting a custom XXXXL archival washer made (prismatic diffusion material from fluorescent fixtures seems extremely close to the stuff used as dividers in some well known ones from over here) or a sink that lets you do fill, agitate, dump cycles - though that is obviously highly demanding of space. Main other headaches are that it really is a two person job to operate it in certain configurations, the trough plugs need to be very carefully checked for good fit & marks from the roller clips can appear on the print if you roll the paper too tightly during processing. You need to be meticulous in cleaning between runs too. I also recall that some people have successfully done RA4 in them too, though I know very little in the way of the specific setup used.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Indeed & it's really one of the strongest cases for the Bobinoir - 20 litres a trough or a little less to set up the 50" one & with pretty decent chemical lifespan once mixed. I'd suggest forgoing the washer setup which seems rather wasteful to me in terms of water usage & instead getting a fourth trough for hypo clear & either getting a custom XXXXL archival washer made (prismatic diffusion material from fluorescent fixtures seems extremely close to the stuff used as dividers in some well known ones from over here) or a sink that lets you do fill, agitate, dump cycles - though that is obviously highly demanding of space. Main other headaches are that it really is a two person job to operate it in certain configurations, the trough plugs need to be very carefully checked for good fit & marks from the roller clips can appear on the print if you roll the paper too tightly during processing. You need to be meticulous in cleaning between runs too. I also recall that some people have successfully done RA4 in them too, though I know very little in the way of the specific setup used.

Lachlan: I am thinking of making a huge archival washer and any ideas from people here would be helpful... I would start with a 6 slot 2inch wide unit that I could put 6 murals in at a time, grey plastic (like my sinks) welded. the trick is the rest on how the water comes in , how the drain works from the bottom for fixer to get out.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Lachlan: I am thinking of making a huge archival washer and any ideas from people here would be helpful... I would start with a 6 slot 2inch wide unit that I could put 6 murals in at a time, grey plastic (like my sinks) welded. the trick is the rest on how the water comes in , how the drain works from the bottom for fixer to get out.

I'd probably follow aspects of the Nova washer design - water inlet manifold section at bottom, fed to the washer slots via specifically drilled holes, textured dividers slightly taller than the water depth to ensure each slot has some agitation and is independent of its neighbours & a waterfall into a drain section at the end above the inlet - whole setup would be relatively easy to plumb in, main concerns are weight of the thing when full (almost certainly needs to sit directly on floor), strength of the materials used (welded thick acrylic?) & ease of getting prints in & out - I've been starting to look at 30x40", however if you're needing to handle 48x72" or similar, you might need some pretty serious engineering. Another simpler possibility might be a 316 stainless or heavy duty plastic tank & a print basket that lifts out (rig a block & tackle to lift it more easily?) From what I understand, what matters is the rate of total water change + some degree of agitation & soak time to allow the thiosulfates etc to leach out - drain position is relatively unimportant - I suppose the above tank could be rigged for gas burst agitation & run on a fill, agitate, soak, dump, refill principal - rather like the Ilford film washing sequence.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Floor model for sure, 1/4 inch plastic welded, prints are held in place by clips like E6 or C41 hanger clips on stainless steel rod that is immersed into the water.. I only plan to print 32 x40 average size , not thinking monster prints, been there done it , over it. The paper pretty much sits and does not float so weights are not needed, the most complicated IMO is the bottom area to convey to a plastic welder as fix is heavier than water and is the secret of vertical washers, so the design needs to incorporate flow through but as well drainage at bottom and top.

 

[MattKing]

as fix is heavier than water and is the secret of vertical washers, so the design needs to incorporate flow through but as well drainage at bottom and top.

Bob:
I think that "fixer is heavier than water and therefore flows out the bottom" has generally been debunked as a myth.
Vertical washers work because they aid in keeping prints separated without using more water than necessary

 

[Lachlan Young]

What Matt said - and the Nova type of washer design (close to an industry standard over here) apparently had significant input in its design from Ilford & does not drain from the bottom. I'd tend to take the fluid dynamics knowledge of Ilford over Fred Picker (or whomever popularised the whole thiosulfate thing).

I'd suggest potentially using 1/2"/ 1cm walls for strength & the big advantage of the right sort of textured dividers is that they'll hold prints in place by surface tension - very handy!

 

[Lee Rust]

DeVille Bobinoir demo video:

 

[Bob Carnie]

Bob:
I think that "fixer is heavier than water and therefore flows out the bottom" has generally been debunked as a myth.
Vertical washers work because they aid in keeping prints separated without using more water than necessary

News to me , do you have sources on that as I have always thought that.

 

[Bob Carnie]

What Matt said - and the Nova type of washer design (close to an industry standard over here) apparently had significant input in its design from Ilford & does not drain from the bottom. I'd tend to take the fluid dynamics knowledge of Ilford over Fred Picker (or whomever popularised the whole thiosulfate thing).

I'd suggest potentially using 1/2"/ 1cm walls for strength & the big advantage of the right sort of textured dividers is that they'll hold prints in place by surface tension - very handy!

I would love to hear more about this and a picture of a Nova type washer.. this is a whole new can of opened worms for me, but really appreciated you both providing more information

 

[Lachlan Young]

I would love to hear more about this and a picture of a Nova type washer.. this is a whole new can of opened worms for me, but really appreciated you both providing more information

Will try & get a picture or two to you tomorrow - it's the standard design, not the latest version which can apparently dump 90% of its contents in a minute & has an integrated wash-aid slot etc.

 

[MattKing]

News to me , do you have sources on that as I have always thought that.

The problem with spending as much time as I have over the years with as many information sources as I do is that sometimes it can be really difficult to identify where you learn stuff. But sometimes I get lucky when I look.
The two Martin Reed Silverprint articles on washing - Mysteries of the Vortex Parts 1 and 2 - are great resources, and Part 1 is one source. I quote from page 3 of Part 1:
"Agitation

That hypo is heavier than water is the hoariest old chestnut around as far as print washing is concerned. It is used as a selling point by manufacturers whose washers use a downward flow system. A solution of hypo is higher in density than water alone – barely. And if you lower a print straight from the fixer into the washer, you will see flow patterns as the fixer drains down from the surface of the paper. Left alone, however, the fixer will eventually diffuse evenly into the water. Introduce any turbulence into the wash water, and diffusion is quick and complete. And, once in solution, fixer cannot separate itself from the water and “sink” anywhere. If you mixed fixer and water in a bottle and left the bottle on a shelf for months, would you return to find the fixer on the bottom and the water on the top, separated from each other like milk and cream? Obviously not, and this can’t happen in your print washer either."

If you aren't already registered on the UK's FADU (Film and Darkroom User) site, I would recommend it.
Here are the links there to the two part of the articles - posted there by Les McLean:
Part 1: http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296
Part 2: http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=344

Hope this helps.

 

[Serg Lavrenchuk]

MODERNAGE Labs in NYC lists 48 x 96 inch fiber based prints at $990 each. They also claim a mural service unlimited in size. Dead Link Removed at the foot of the homepage is the link to the catalog.

Due to some.. war.. and economical situation.. we print for food at the local market.
bw or color optical enlargement with 50" width capability and 70" length (could be longer by agreement).

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10217351123119758&set=a.2359914446983&type=3&theater